temp. service # of gfci alowed

[KIRKBRO]

just had a temp.service red tagged because I enstalled 4 gfic.Inspector said to look at panelboards and switchboards when recp. is used the six handle rule no longer allowed need a main read it all don't see why.Looked at temp. services can't see there where the six handle rule was excluded, am I missing something

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The temp. pole we use comes prewired etc. It has 1 dp 220 volt GFCI Breaker and 2- SP breakers connected to 2 GFCI recep. I don't see the problem.
However, I think the inspector is referring to art. 408.34(A) and art 408.36(A).

First off, I am not sure that this would qualify under a lighting and appliance branch panelboard since a temp pole does not protect lighting. The receptacles may be used for lights but the receptacles are not defined as lighting. Just a guess.....
Secondly, this is a service and the six disco rule, IMO "Rules". If the inspector is righ everyone I know has amany temp poles that do not qualify under his terms.

 

[iwire]

Per the NEC definitions a panel on a temp pole is a Lighting and Appliance Branch circuit board.

 

[iwire]

I had to go and get my 2005 out of the truck.

Based on the 2005 NEC it is my opinion that a panel used on a temp pole is Lighting and appliance branch circuit panel per 408.34 and 408.34(A)

Check out 408.34 and you see that any branch circuit that connects to the neutral and has over-current protection 30 amps or less is in fact a Lighting and Appliance branch circuit regardless of the equipment it supplies.

Now that we know it is a Lighting and Appliance Branch-circuit panel board we know what rules we need to follow.

408.36 requires over-current protection for Lighting and Appliance Branch circuit panel-boards.

If the inspector is righ everyone I know has amany temp poles that do not qualify under his terms.

It is not 'his' terms, it's the NEC terms, you might want to start ordering your temp poles with mains before you get bit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Bob-- that makes sense but what about 230.71(B). If I had 4 GFCI receptacles feed from a two MWBC and used handle ties would this not fall into compliance with this art.

 

[iwire]

Bob-- that makes sense but what about 230.71(B). If I had 4 GFCI receptacles feed from a two MWBC and used handle ties would this not fall into compliance with this art.

No.

As long as the panel is a lighting and appliance branch circuit panel board it the panel itself must be protected from over-current.

Now if you have a situation where it qualified as a 'power panel-board' it would be a different situation.

 

[speedypetey]

You guys understood that post??? WOW!
You are seeing a lot more than I am.
-How do we know the SEC size?
-Do we know the feeder is 30 amps or less?
-How do we know this is not a main panel?
-Since this is a panel seemingly feeding only receptacles wouldn't 408.34(B) apply? Making this a power panelboard?

What I got from it is since he installed GFI receptacles the inspector tells him he needs a main breaker.
Is this the question?

 

[iwire]

-How do we know the SEC size?

Why do we need that?

-Do we know the feeder is 30 amps or less?

Irrelevant.

-How do we know this is not a main panel?

I believe it is a 'main panel' but 'main panel' is not a term that matters to the NEC.

-Since this is a panel seemingly feeding only receptacles wouldn't 408.34(B) apply? Making this a power panelboard?

It is not a power panel board, it is a lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard.

Read 408.34 carefully.

In part it says

A lighting and appliance branch circuit is a branch circuit that has a connection to the neutral of the panelboard and that has overcurrent protection of 30 amperes or less in one or more conductors.

In other words the panel may only supply 15 amp 120 volt receptacles but to the NEC it is a A lighting and appliance branch circuit panel board.

What I got from it is since he installed GFI receptacles the inspector tells him he needs a main breaker.
Is this the question?

As I understand it, yes.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Bob, I just went outside and checked on a temp. pole I have. It is made by Milbank and is intergrated with the meter base (one piece) There are 3 disco. One 240 volt 20 amp GFI CB for a 240v 20 amp recep. There are two sp that control 2 120v GFCI recep. The panel says suitable for service equipment.


Are you saying that this can be turned down. If so, why? There is no place for a main cb

 

[iwire]

Bob, I just went outside and checked on a temp. pole I have. It is made by Milbank and is intergrated with the meter base (one piece) There are 3 disco. One 240 volt 20 amp GFI CB for a 240v 20 amp recep. There are two sp that control 2 120v GFCI recep. The panel says suitable for service equipment.

Are you saying that this can be turned down. If so, why? There is no place for a main cb

I am saying that as long as the circuits installed make this a lighting and appliance branch circuit panel board (which in this case they do) it is a violation.

If you used this same panel and installed two two pole breakers larger than 30 amps or the circuits did not utilize the neutral than it would be a power panel and would be OK.

Say you used this panel with two 100 amp breakers that fed two 'sub' panels, then it would be a power panel and would be OK without a main.

Thats how I see it.

 

[augie47]

temp

temp

see them daily... pass them daily although they are a violation of 408.36......

 

[iwire]

see them daily...

I have never seen a temp service without a main.

Heck some of our temp panels even have shunt trip breakers operated by Mushroom headed red push buttons on the outside of them.

 

[George Stolz]

How about this statement:

The object in question is a power outlet, not an L&ABCPB.

If that statement were true, then 408.36 would have nothing to say about it.

I'd like to think that's true, because these Milbank power outlets sell like hot cakes for temp power, and they are passed daily. I'd like to think somebody would have noticed the non-compliance with the NEC by now, if there were any.

 

[iwire]

How about this statement:

The object in question is a power outlet, not an L&ABCPB.

How about this statement:

I am as rich as Bill Gates.

IMO they each have the same level of accuracy.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

There is a fundimental misunderstanding here of what constitutes a Lighting and Appliance Panelboard.
Bob has already pointed out the differences. It has nothing to do with the equipment supplied by the panelboard, but the size of the overcurrent device and the neutral connection within the panelboard itself. Take another look at 408.34. (one could supply all lighting circuits without Neutral conductors and the panel would be a Power Panelboard)

Also, the protection for L&A panelboards includes 2 mains, which would support having 2 different circuit breakers in the Milbank setup.

Look at the exception to (B)Power Panelboard Protection.
This gives relief for the service equipment Main, up to 6 throws of the hand.


"I am as rich as Bill Gates"
would you mind if I borrowed a few bucks?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is a fundimental misunderstanding here of what constitutes a Lighting and Appliance Panelboard.

Are you saying that this panel which has 3 discos is a power panel. I am not catching your point here. I see if it is a power panel than the 6 disco rule "Rules" but.....

 

[iwire]

"I am as rich as Bill Gates"
would you mind if I borrowed a few bucks?

If I was yes you could.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the temp pole I was thinking about. I took the cover off to get a better view. It says it is approved for service equip. A little hard to see but there are 2 sp and 1 dp. I guess you could put a handle tie on the 2 SP breakers and there would be no issue at all.

View attachment 488​

 

[KIRKBRO]

# gfic on temp service

# gfic on temp service

I guess my understanding came from 230.71B Single Pole Units (Pole being wood-Pole or something similar) .Mobile home service on a pole 2p home,2p well 1p gfic ,1p outling building,1p xamas lights.no main no problem?

 

[Jackleg]

Dennis, no handle ties necessary. On the inside of the cover it should say Power Outlet. That is why your inspectors do not look for a main because it is a Power Outlet, not a panel board at all and 408 would not apply.