What's an inspector to do?

[Mike03a3]

It is not insane IMO. It is aimed at stopping people that are not qualified, from doing electrical work,and giving the work to the electrician.

I seriously doubt that is the aim of the law, although it is apparantly your personal aim and I concede the poor wording allows your interpretation.

If you are correct, then you are saying it is the intent of the Commonwealth to force all people who arguably do know what they are doing (the electricians) to pay for a permit and get their work inspected; but to turn a blind eye and refuse to inspect the work of those who might not know what they are doing (the homeowners).

Are homeowners refused all building permits, or just electrical? Are there no laws requiring permits (for single family dwellings) other than the one you cited? If I lived there, could I just build my own home from scratch with no permits and inspections because I'm not doing it for hire?

Frankly, I think the Virginia rules make more sense. Everyone has to get a permit, and everyone has to get their work inspected. The inspectors job is to inspect. If the HO doesn't pass, he doesn't pass. No need for the inspector to do any more than hand out a red tag with a code reference. Certainly no need for an inspector to waste time teaching, or explaining. If the HO says he doesn't understand, then the inspector may offer the helpful suggestion that he engage the services of someone who both understands the code references and would be unlikely to have been red tagged in the first place.

 

[nakulak]

if the ahj decides that homeowners can do their own work, then whoever did the work gets red-tagged. whoever is allowed to do the work by the ahj is presumably going to fix the work, so forcing the homeowner to provide an electrician if not required by the ahj doesn't make sense. that being said, whomever decides to hand out advice on how and what to be fixed is assuming some liability they might not want the bad end of. similarly, this is obviously one of those cases where the poco has some liablility (due to the particular circumstances) that they probably are not aware of, and probably would not be happy to find out about. its tough to tell people they are going to have their power turned off, but its tougher to have to go to court and explain why you didn't have their power turned off in the event that this guy's house burns down, or worse - burns down and people are killed in it.

 

[romeo]

What's an inspector to do?

It is obvious that I am being whipped, regarding this issue, this will be my last response.

It is strange that in this State that a HO is not allowed to change a washer in a faucet whiteout a license, but is permitted to wire his own house.

Violations are easy to find on a rough inspection, but not so easy on a final

The good thing is that I have not received a permit application from HO for a very long time, so electricians must be doing the work, IMO if I am responsible for having qualified persons doing the work,I am doing a lot more for public safety, than inspecting work for those that are not qualified, should I miss a violation.

Again the words FOR HIRE in the MGL permit me to do this. This is not only my opinion, but that of the State Board of Examiners.

 

[romeo]

What's an inspector to do?

I seriously doubt that is the aim of the law, although it is apparantly your personal aim and I concede the poor wording allows your interpretation.

If you are correct, then you are saying it is the intent of the Commonwealth to force all people who arguably do know what they are doing (the electricians) to pay for a permit and get their work inspected; but to turn a blind eye and refuse to inspect the work of those who might not know what they are doing (the homeowners).

Are homeowners refused all building permits, or just electrical? Are there no laws requiring permits (for single family dwellings) other than the one you cited? If I lived there, could I just build my own home from scratch with no permits and inspections because I'm not doing it for hire?

Frankly, I think the Virginia rules make more sense. Everyone has to get a permit, and everyone has to get their work inspected. The inspectors job is to inspect. If the HO doesn't pass, he doesn't pass. No need for the inspector to do any more than hand out a red tag with a code reference. Certainly no need for an inspector to waste time teaching, or explaining. If the HO says he doesn't understand, then the inspector may offer the helpful suggestion that he engage the services of someone who both understands the code references and would be unlikely to have been red tagged in the first place.

Permits are required for building. Also for plumbing, and a license is required.
Ho are not allowed to do plumbing in there own house regardless if it is sf or mf.

IMO according to the MGL a property owner doing work that he is not paid for is not subject to the MGL section.

I do get around that though.If a person is collecting rent or is gaining financially from the property, I consider that doing work for a profit.

 

[iwire]

It is aimed at stopping people that are not qualified, from doing electrical work,and giving the work to the electrician.

So is it about safety or making work?

You kind of lost me as soon as you said 'giving work to the electrician'.

IMO part of the 'American Dream' is owning a home and doing your own work on it.

Homeowners in MA are not allowed by law to do plumbing........judging from any Home Depot or Lowe's on the weekend I think many choose to ignore that.

 

[celtic]

It is obvious that I am being whipped, regarding this issue, this will be my last response.

Romeo...don't take it personally....but if that's what you decided, then so be it.

It is strange that in this State that a HO is not allowed to change a washer in a faucet whiteout a license, but is permitted to wire his own house.

That is strange.
What would prevent a HO from swapping out the washer - are they not for sale in Mass.?

The good thing is that I have not received a permit application from HO for a very long time, so electricians must be doing the work, ...

You really believe the HO's are hiring the EC and not doing the work themselves?
I find that hard to believe....having spent more than 5 minutes in the electrical aisle at Big Box on a Saturday :grin:

IMO if I am responsible for having qualified persons doing the work,I am doing a lot more for public safety, than inspecting work for those that are not qualified, should I miss a violation.

I really don't get it....
The State is losing plenty of revenue from permit fees and tax increases....safety has been given a back seat so the "unqualified" can run amuck and sell their (potential) deathtrap to an unsuspecting family..etc etc etc.

It just doesn't make sense to me....maybe because I am so familiar with NJ's language:

45:5A-18. Exempt work or construction
Text of section effective until June 30, 2003.

Electrical work or construction which is performed on the following facilities or which is by or for the following agencies shall not be included within the business of electrical contracting so as to require the securing of a business permit under this act:

Work performed by a person on a dwelling that is occupied solely as a residence for himself or for a member or members of his immediate family.

http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/electric/eleclaws.pdf


However, HO's working on their own SFH's can obtain a construction permit by signing this document:

Before signing the Certification in Lieu of Oath indicating that you are performing the work yourself, please consider the following:

1. The laws requiring new home builders to be registered and contractors in the various trades, such as plumbing or electrical work, to be licensed were
adopted to protect homeowners and homebuyers. If you are signing this Certification to provide cover to an unlicensed homebuilder or contractor, you are forfeiting the protection afforded to you under the law.
The contractor that you have hired may or may not be qualified. And if you encounter problems with this contractor, the government will not be able to help you because you signed the Certification indicating that you are performing the work yourself.
In the case of the construction of a new home, you are forfeiting your right to a new home warranty. Every new home builder in New Jersey is required to be registered with the State and to give a warranty to each purchaser. The warranty covers almost all defects in workmanship or materials, including appliances, for the first year; plumbing, mechanical (heating and air conditioning), and electrical systems for the first two years; and major structural defects for ten years. Further, the warranty will actually pay for the correction of defects if the builder fails or refuses to do so. By signing the Certification, you are giving up that protection.

2. You are violating the criminal laws of this State if you sign the Certification indicating that you are doing the work yourself when, in fact, you are paying someone else to do it.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/forms/pdf/warning_owners_signingcertification.pdf

 

[iwire]

Celtic the way the law in MA is worded for electrical permits only people installing electrical work for a fee have to be licensed and pull permits.

I believe there has been an effort to change this but AFAIK it has not been changed.

For plumbing the law requires that it must be done by a licensed plumber.

My Dad was a plumber here in MA and if I asked him about this he would first tell me how if you did plumbing wrong you could contaminate the water supply.....then he would give me a wink and use the 'U' word along with talk about job security.

As far as the effectiveness of that plumbing law?

I don't think the big box stores will be removing the plumbing departments.

 

[romeo]

What's an inspector to do?

So is it about safety or making work?

You kind of lost me as soon as you said 'giving work to the electrician'.

IMO part of the 'American Dream' is owning a home and doing your own work on it.

Homeowners in MA are not allowed by law to do plumbing........judging from any Home Depot or Lowe's on the weekend I think many choose to ignore that.

It is defiantly about safety. IMO public safety will be served if electricians do the work. I am retired and do not do any electrical work at all, or care to.

Bob It is my goal to make the American Dream come true for the HO, I think that I can help to make that happen, by doing all I can to prevent him/her from doing electrical work.

It is certain, that all of us in this forum are here because we want to promote safe electrical installations. IMO encouraging persons not qualified to do electrical work is not a method of accomplishing that goal.

I totally agree about about HO doing plumbing ,that does not scare me as much as those buying electrical supply's and installing them as directed by Jo Schmo at the counter.

Sorry that I can not explain my feeling about this better, clerical work is not my best suite.

 

[mpd]

romeo

if you prevent the homeowner from getting a permit, they will find other methods, like not getting a permit and doing unsafe work that will not be inspected, that is not protecting the homeowner

 

[iwire]

Bob It is my goal to make the American Dream come true for the HO, I think that I can help to make that happen, by doing all I can to prevent him/her from doing electrical work.

I really can not see how you are helping them.

It is certain, that all of us in this forum are here because we want to promote safe electrical installations. IMO encouraging persons not qualified to do electrical work is not a method of accomplishing that goal.

Everything in life is a compromise, I am for electrical safety but I am also for individual rights.

I will never be convinced that a homeowner does not have right to work on their own home even if that put the family at risk.

Candles start 1000s of fires each year many with deadly results, why don't we stop the sale of them?

 

[JohnJ0906]

Isn't it safer to have the HO get a permit, and be inspected, if he is doing work at his own house, than to just do it with no oversight at all? :-?

If, after a "red tag" or 3, he might figure out he is in over his head, and hire someone qualified.

Without any inspection, he may very well install multiple safety/NEC violations, and never know it!

 

[stader]

grandfather clause

grandfather clause

CharlieB- I view the website daily-this has been the most interesting and provoked topics for a while. Ditto on all "home inspectors". But in my case where I was really trying to sell, the $36 for 3 receps at kitchen sink was worth it to make the sale. He did not even mention the two in the bathrooms. It's just another money making scam for somebody that is in that field because for the most part it is unregulated

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It is defiantly about safety. IMO public safety will be served if electricians do the work. I am retired and do not do any electrical work at all, or care to.

Bob It is my goal to make the American Dream come true for the HO, I think that I can help to make that happen, by doing all I can to prevent him/her from doing electrical work.

It is certain, that all of us in this forum are here because we want to promote safe electrical installations. IMO encouraging persons not qualified to do electrical work is not a method of accomplishing that goal.

I totally agree about about HO doing plumbing ,that does not scare me as much as those buying electrical supply's and installing them as directed by Jo Schmo at the counter.

Sorry that I can not explain my feeling about this better, clerical work is not my best suite.

So are you saying if in your own home if you yourself need to add a few outlets or whatever that you will hire an EC ? Or is it possable some non licensed home owner just might be qualified.Seems that an inspector should check the work.

 

[cowboyjwc]

The problem with the thought process that a HO should not do electrical work because he is not qualified to do so then just carrys right over to us as well.

With that thought process no matter how long you have been an EC and been in the trades, when you finally decide to do that room add you will have to hire a GC as you are not qualified to do the work since you are only a home owner at this point.