Why am I at a sandwich shop at 2:00 AM?

[Jim W in Tampa]

ooops ok i see the ground bar,kinda hidden but is there

 

[gndrod]

Very nice Bob. rbj

 

[quogueelectric]

Nice job I love doing McGuyver type work with the theme from mission impossible playing in the background. This stuff gets sooooo boring day to day.

 

[e57]

My wife wont even let me work week-ends - not about money so much as her sanity - we have a daughter 18 MO who turns 2 a few times a day.

As for the service call - I would wire brushed and buffed up the stabs with a new breaker temporarily to return at a decent hour, then piped the panel someplace else. Then do the swap over all at once by using the existing enclosure as a J-box - then gut the inside and screw the cover shut. The other side of the wall is an awesome place if available. Little down-time that way, and possible better location away from the 'readily accessible' table clearing two man moving job.

 

[quogueelectric]

My wife wont even let me work week-ends - not about money so much as her sanity - we have a daughter 18 MO who turns 2 a few times a day.

As for the service call - I would wire brushed and buffed up the stabs with a new breaker temporarily to return at a decent hour, then piped the panel someplace else. Then do the swap over all at once by using the existing enclosure as a J-box - then gut the inside and screw the cover shut. The other side of the wall is an awesome place if available. Little down-time that way, and possible better location away from the 'readily accessible' table clearing two man moving job.

Let me be the first to tell you that the terrible twos do not end at three.

 

[e57]

Let me be the first to tell you that the terrible twos do not end at three.

So I've been told.... FYI I have had to go 'adjust' her 3 times during the few minutes since my last post. And am about to go put her covers back on again - right now.

 

[electricmanscott]

As for the service call - I would wire brushed and buffed up the stabs with a new breaker temporarily to return at a decent hour, then piped the panel someplace else. Then do the swap over all at once by using the existing enclosure as a J-box - then gut the inside and screw the cover shut. The other side of the wall is an awesome place if available. Little down-time that way, and possible better location away from the 'readily accessible' table clearing two man moving job.

What was wrong with just leaving the panel where it was?


If it was my sandwich shop It would have been done at night too. No way are you shutting me down during the day.

 

[jeremysterling]

Thanks for the story and pics, iwire. Nice install. Like someone said already, the shop owner will arrive in the morning and never know ya'll had been there, except for the comforting thought that his new panel will not burn down his shop.

 

[M. D.]

I did not read every post ,.. so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

What size are those conductors and is the breaker feeding it properly sized ???

Looks like quite a load.

 

[shockare]

not bad

not bad

But i got to knock you down for not re identifying the white wire
that is landed on the 2o amp 2 pole on the lower right, did you also not group that pair?
And panel cut in is a bit messy , something a HO might do
But for a 2am call it will pass, till morning

 

[iwire]

but cleaned up the mess.

It is nice for him to go back to work the next morning like nothing ever happened.

More then I let on, when we were done with putting things back the floor looked like this....

until I found a mop .....

So....did you label all the circuits?

I plead the 5th.

did you use a torque wrench?

I used a Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory Edition Signature Series torque wrench. The kind used by Caltech high energy physicists. And NASA engineers. A split second before the torque wrench was applied to the lugs, it had been calibrated by top members of the state AND federal Department of Weights and Measures... to be dead on accurate!

I'm going to guess they had some exterior lighting and/or sign circuit they just used a breaker to control, and you added a timer to it.

In this picture

You can see the time clock for the pole mounted sign, it had been mounted below the panel before we started cutting.

You can also see a 4" square that had two single poles, one was disconnected when we got there and the other had a napkin scotch tapped over it with a note not to touch. We asked an employee what it did that told us it shut off the backroom lights. Well it did, it also shut down the main computer for phone orders and the registers. We just eliminated the switches.

Is this a sub panel ? I see a bonding screw on neutral and cross over bar

Neutrals and grounds all separate, bonding screw in trash barrel, the grounding bar is in the upper left corner.

I would wire brushed and buffed up the stabs with a new breaker temporarily to return at a decent hour,

I would have been into that but there is no decent time available. They need this panel from 8AM to 11PM 7 days a week.

then piped the panel someplace else.

There is no 'someplace else' the place is full to the top.

As it was I had to take down a shelf to make room for the taller panel. In the photo below you can see the marks on the wall between the panel and the remaining shelves.

Here is the only place I could find for the shelf

Then do the swap over all at once by using the existing enclosure as a J-box - then gut the inside and screw the cover shut. The other side of the wall is an awesome place if available.

The other side of the wall would place the panel above the serving counter on the public side. Then of course there is the money factor, hard enough convincing them they need a new panel. If it was up to me they would bulldoze the entire building and start again.

What size are those conductors and is the breaker feeding it properly sized ???

My best guess is 2 AWG AL, there is a 100 amp breaker at the service. I say "Rule 3"

Looks like quite a load.

Not really, a few breakers are maxed out but many did not read any load even when they where open for business.

 

[iwire]

But i got to knock you down for not re identifying the white wire

It is a two pole 30 supplying a toaster oven, per the NEC the white should be remarked other then white. It is rarely done here in MA. I think most of us can tell it is not a neutral by virtue of it being landed on a breaker. In this state they went so far as to amend 200.7(C)(2) for switch legs.

did you also not group that pair?

There is no requirement to group that pair.

And panel cut in is a bit messy , something a HO might do

OUCH! Body Slam, Bob has been knocked to the floor.

But for a 2am call it will pass, till morning

I think it is just fine for the time and place.

 

[shockare]

Lol Sorry bud but had to do it, you know we all have pride in our work
and our best work is never seen, I bet after all that the shop owner never
even offered a coffee, I know it was a hurry up and get it done job

Been there done that myself without even a thanks.
I once went on a service call with a cast on my ankle
in the middle of winter storm to crawl into an attic to rewire 3 air handlers
that hvac guys screwed up with the thought of:
I wanna go home and sleep 2 hours

Then have to be back at the shop at 6 am
loading up for the next fun day.

i may be wrong but 210.4 (d)

(D) Grouping. The ungrounded and grounded conductors
of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped by wire
ties or similar means in at least one location within the
panelboard or other point of origination.

 

[M. D.]

My best guess is 2 AWG AL, there is a 100 amp breaker at the service. I say "Rule 3"

I guess so ,.. but let's say you were replacing light fixtures and the circuit breakers were 30 amp the conductor #12 would you leave the 30 amp breakers in place citing rule #3 of the Mass Code ???

yuck,.. and not much different in my opinion

Not really, a few breakers are maxed out but many did not read any load even when they where open for business.

So plenty of room for additional load on an improperly protected feeder,..

As a customer I would rather have had a back fed breaker the correct size ,.. than the floor mopped.. nice job otherwise.

 

[iwire]

I guess so ,.. but let's say you were replacing light fixtures and the circuit breakers were 30 amp the conductor #12 would you leave the 30 amp breakers in place citing rule #3 of the Mass Code ???

I could, in this case I did not happen to have a 2 pole FPE breaker in the truck.

yuck,.. and not much different in my opinion

To each their own.:smile:

As a customer I would rather have had a back fed breaker the correct size ,.. than the floor mopped.. nice job otherwise.

But you are not the customer, the customer would have been happier if we just jammed more piggy backs in the existing panel.

Bottom line, the place is safer then when I got there, in my mind that is a good thing. Of course we could choose to take the hardline and tell them it's all or nothing but then we would not have fixed anything and they might have gone with a handyman from Craig's list.

 

[iwire]

i may be wrong but 210.4 (d)

(D) Grouping. The ungrounded and grounded conductors
of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped by wire
ties or similar means in at least one location within the
panelboard or other point of origination.

It is not a multiwire branch circuit.:smile:

 

[EBFD6]

i may be wrong but 210.4 (d)

(D) Grouping. The ungrounded and grounded conductors
of each multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped by wire
ties or similar means in at least one location within the
panelboard or other point of origination.

You need to go back and read the exception, these wires are part of the same cable.

Also, as Iwire mentioned, this is not a MWBC.

 

[electricmanscott]

Bottom line, the place is safer then when I got there, in my mind that is a good thing. Of course we could choose to take the hardline and tell them it's all or nothing but then we would not have fixed anything and they might have gone with a handyman from Craig's list.

That's good enough for me. Although it doesn't matter what I think. :smile:

 

[SEO]

iwire it sure is fun to see everyone pick on you and try to find fault with your work. It looks like the only thing that you didn't do was patch and paint the repair.:smile:

 

[iwire]

iwire it sure is fun to see everyone pick on you and try to find fault with your work.

Thats fine, it is sort of what we do here and if I was not willing to take it I would not have posted the pictures.