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  • Brian Dang
    replied
    I must admit that I have learned a lot from this interesting thread, particularly about the mystery of Armored Ground Wire (or Cable) installation.


    I had asked a few manufacturers on the product installation, and here are the answers from two companies. Other companies didn't want to give information about how to install their products, which I was very surprised.

    AFC Cable Systems: how to install bare armored grounding cable, part # 1301-42-00

    From: Picard, Paul [mailto:PPicard@atkore.com]
    Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 9:29 AM
    To: Brian Dang
    Cc: afcmarketing <a1e2229@atkore.com>; Barry, Jay <JBarry@atkore.com>; Campbell, David <DCampbell@atkore.com>; Lyons, Lindsay <LLyons@atkore.com>; Reis, Paul <PReis@atkore.com>; Straniero, George <GStraniero@atkore.com>; Vertente, Mike <MVertente@atkore.com>
    Subject: RE: AFCweb.com Contact Submission about Product Information Request

    APR 29, 2016

    Brian:
    Yes the armor of the Bare Armored Ground should be bonded at both ends. The bonding can be accomplished through the use of listed fittings at each termination.

    Regards,
    Paul R. Picard
    Product & Design Engineering Manager
    AFC Cable systems, Inc.

    From: afcmarketing
    Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 11:23 AM
    To: Picard, Paul
    Cc: Barry, Jay
    Subject: FW: AFCweb.com Contact Submission about Product Information Request

    Hi Paul,

    Please answer Brian’s question below.

    Thanks
    Lindsay

    Lindsay Lyons|Marketing Communications, Cable Solutions
    Atkore International | 960 Flaherty Dr | New Bedford, MA 02745
    Office: 508.985.1240

    From: Brian Dang
    Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 3:00 PM
    To: afcmarketing
    Subject: AFCweb.com Contact Submission about Product Information Request

    Comments
    1301-42-00

    Re to part # 1301-42-00, bare armored grounding cable, for using as Grounding Electrode Conductor. Since the armor is a ferrous steel material, does the armor need to be bonded at each end to the copper wire that the armor enclosed, per NEC 2011 250.64?

    Best Regards,
    Brian





    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    Duraclad Bare Armored Ground Cable, part # 55-16-01-01


    Subject: RE: product_support

    Brian,

    Thought about it a bit further and talked with another code savvy person. Actually, I change my recommendation to be in favor of bonding the armor. The reason why? When the GEC is routed into the main panel, the armor is in the vicinity of live conductors. While the probability of live voltage coming into contact with the armor is very low, we do not want to have the possibility of live voltage on an ungrounded conductive material that is outside the panel.

    As far as the concern about inductive loading by the ungrounded ferrous cable armor around the GEC, that may be a legitimate concern. I can appreciate that the inductive loading will oppose the sudden inrush of current to the grounding electrode. Since my recommendation is (now) to bond the armor, I will leave this research for another time.

    BTW - I have started serving on NEC code panels and taking a lawyer's approach is required when interpreting the code among many competing interests.

    Dave


    Dave Watson
    Sr. Applications Engineer
    Electrical Division
    Research & Development
    Southwire Company
    Cofer Technology Center
    111 Development Drive
    Carrollton, GA 30117
    770-832-5059


    Subject: RE: product_support

    Brian,

    We do not manufacture clamps and connectors. I don't have any specific recommendations. Some manufacturers of MC fittings (similar to an armored ground cable) are Arlington, Bridgeport, American Fittings, Crouse Hinds, Thomas & Betts, Panduit (one of their businesses), etc., ....

    Dave


    Dave Watson
    Sr. Applications Engineer
    Electrical Division
    Research & Development
    Southwire Company
    Cofer Technology Center
    111 Development Drive
    Carrollton, GA 30117
    770-832-5059


    -----Original Message-----
    Subject: RE: product_support

    Dave,

    In this statement under 250.64 (E), " Ferrous (iron/steel) raceways, boxes, and enclosures containing the grounding electrode conductors" , I think the word raceways was used to mean rigid metal conduit, EMT, steel armor etc., in its context -- enclosing a single conductor for a short connection to the grounding electrode, and not multi current carrying conductors . One could use the word enclosure instead of raceway for the armor, since it is enclosing the conductor inside. Are we talking like lawyers or should we apply engineering practices to make a safe product -- using grounding electrode conductor proper way? I understand raceway generally is used to mean the conductive conduit enclosing hot, neutral, and EGC inside.

    Anyway, could you give suggestion of what type of clamps and connectors for connecting this product?

    Best,
    Brian



    -----Original Message-----
    Subject: RE: product_support

    Hi Dave,

    As you said, (B) allows the use of cable armor such as the one used on this part #55-16-01-01 for physical damage protection. However (E) states that any ferrous raceways must have each end of the raceway bonded to the conductor it enclosed. Please see below. Does this product have ferrous or non-ferrous material for the armor part? What would be the recommended method for bonding one end to the service panel and the other end to the grounding rod (grounding electrode), clamp and connector part numbers? We could ask the local AHJ about the installation, but I would seek the advice of a product engineer for the right way of using for best performance.


    From NEC 2011, 250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
    (B) It shall be protected in rigid metal conduit (RMC), intermediate metal conduit, (IMC) rigid polyvinyl conduit (PVC), reinforced thermosetting resin conduit (RTRC), electrical metallic tubing (EMT), or cable armor.

    (E) Enclosures for Grounding Electrode Conductor. Ferrous (iron/steel) raceways, boxes, and enclosures containing the grounding electrode conductors must have each end of the ferrous metal raceway, box, and enclosure bonded to the grounding electrode conductor [250.92(A)(3)]. Figure 250.115

    Regards,
    Brian



    -----Original Message-----
    Subject: product_support


    Message: Re to part # 55-16-01-01, bare armored grounding cable, for using as Grounding Electrode Conductor. Since the armor is a steel material, does the armor need to be bonded at each end to the copper wire that the armor enclosed, per NEC 2011 250.64?

    Best Regards,
    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    The takeaway: Theory only gives you less than passing marks.
    I total agreed

    Leave a comment:


  • Strathead
    replied
    Originally posted by SAP View Post
    Sorry bout the confusion it is metallic cable with with 1 # 6 solid copper wire, I talked to Arlington, they said not only is there MC box connectors, But any manufacturers MC connectors have to be UL listed for 514.B tested for bonding and grounding thanks for the input
    Don't know about any of the rest of it, but this post right here tells me the inspector is looking for MC connectors that are listed MCI-A for HCF cable. Not all Arlington connectors carry this listing. One would think the MC would also be required to carry the HCF listing for 514 as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    Al,

    All of the works I had done I should be able to back them up with [COLOR=#ff0000]calculations, product datasheets, industry publications or physics laws[/COLOR] if anyone, AHJ included, ever question about their safety, performance, and function. I had asked numerous times for any datasheet, Application Note, or any document that to show the said armored ground wire is approved to be used for GEC without the needs to bond its steel armor ends to the enclosed conductor, or how to install it correctly. Listed under Grounding and Bonding Equipment, KDER, doesn’t mean the product when installed incorrectly and still can be code compliant. How would you install it for earth grounding a Service Panel, if you don’t mind to share?
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    What you did might be OK with your local regulation, but [COLOR=#ff0000]it might not meet the National Electrical Code at other locals[/COLOR].
    The NEC is the same nationwide. Period. Local ordinance may alter the contents of the NEC. Minnesota adopts into statute the unaltered entirety of the NEC, every edition, with extremely rare exception.

    Now, maybe you are going to try to spin "industry publications" to construe legal ordinance based on regulatory standards. . . but really, Brian, in this thread you have shown a disregard for such, or, at minimum, a disconnection from such. Your attempts to interpret the Code in spite of fundamental definitions of the terms in our thread, in favor of theoretical physics, discredit you and your perspective. Theoretical correctness accounts for only a part of what is required to assemble equipment that complies with the written word of the legally enforceable Code and other nationally established and recognized standards.

    If you, as an electrical engineer with a four year, or more, degree, were to apply to Minnesota for a Class "A" Master electrician license (the most potent electrical license in Minnesota), by virtue of your degree, you would be given permission to sit for the exam. You would be issued a Master license upon passing the test. The test is only 1/3 theory. It is 1/3 on the terms and passages of the actual NEC, and it is 1/3 on the mechanical assembly of things that provide for power and light. If you can't "speak NEC" and if you can't answer accurately questions about mechanical procedure, you will fail the test.

    The takeaway: Theory only gives you less than passing marks.

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    The "contractor" specifying my wiring method is rarer than armored grounding wire. Your hypothetical is not remotely realistic.

    You, I believe, are asking me would I bond the armor to the bare wire at both ends. I've shown you my answer in this thread countless times, it feels like. The armored grounding wire is grounding and bonding equipment. Period. It is not cable, therefore it does not have cable armor. The NEC is silent about doing ANY bonding of the armor to the wire, Period.

    In the interest of collegiality, and because of the rareness of the material in my geographic area, I will check with my local inspector ahead of time. If my local inspector disagrees, I will provide White Book documentation and NEC citations and talk further, and with his/her boss if needed. Everybody gets to learn, including me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    I forgot to say using armored ground wire for GEC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    my area also has next to no armored grounding wire in use.
    Because of the lack of common usage I would err on entering an enclosure through a listed connector where exposed outside of a structure, but on the interior and a Service Disconnecting Means, where no physical protection is a Code rule, I'd run it as a bare conductor.
    Thank you for sharing. What you did might be OK with your local regulation, but it might not meet the National Electrical Code at other locals. If a contractor hired you to install the GEC from a Service panel to a water pipe ground electrode with physical protection required for the GEC, inside a building, what would you do?

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    How would you install it for [COLOR=#FF0000]earth grounding[/COLOR] a Service Panel, if you don’t mind to share?
    "Earth grounding" is not defined in the NEC, or related standards.

    I choose to get Physical Protection in other ways for my Grounding Electrode Conductor and bonding conductors.

    As Peter notes for his area, my area also has next to no armored grounding wire in use.

    Because of the lack of common usage I would err on entering an enclosure through a listed connector where exposed outside of a structure, but on the interior and a Service Disconnecting Means, where no physical protection is a Code rule, I'd run it as a bare conductor. I'd just as soon as not pick a skirmish with my local inspectors (I've got a lot of 'em), for his/her lack of familiarity, . . .and would also be inclined to inquire ahead of the actual use.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    Al,

    All of the works I had done I should be able to back them up with calculations, product datasheets, industry publications or physics laws if anyone, AHJ included, ever question about their safety, performance, and function. I had asked numerous times for any datasheet, Application Note, or any document that to show the said armored ground wire is approved to be used for GEC without the needs to bond its steel armor ends to the enclosed conductor, or how to install it correctly. Listed under Grounding and Bonding Equipment, KDER, doesn’t mean the product when installed incorrectly and still can be code compliant. How would you install it for earth grounding a Service Panel, if you don’t mind to share?

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    From Post # 29 of the Continuous thread:

    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    I don't have NEC book.
    I now understand why we have had the confusing discussion. You've got some homework to do.

    As an electrical engineer I understand the allure of the theoretical knowledge. As a working hands-on-the-tools licensed Master electrician I know the value of legal standards that regulate the bit of hardware that I add to an assembly. As both, I know the continual need to be reminded of the basic definition of each and every term, whether single or multiword, that I use.

    In my estimation, the learning curve of the electrical world, while having a varying slope, is ALWAYS upwards.

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    I also think the OP was using an armored grounding wire but failed to bond the steel armor sleeve properly per AHJ. Am I wrong?

    Originally posted by SAP View Post
    I always used MC connectors to connect my armored ground. I [COLOR=#ff0000]used the snap in MC connector. AHJ said it was not properly bonded with that connector,[/COLOR] this job was a service change for a solar array, Solar Company drove a ground rod by there disconnect on the other side of house and used [COLOR=#ff0000]a Romex connector with a ground bushing to bond there armored ground and that was properly bonding the MC according to the inspector[/COLOR], I have used Romex connectors on MC but never if the inspector can see it and only has a last resort, My GEC is water then to ground rod #4 it's about a 50 foot run. Does anybody know of a way I can bond the mc
    In my opinion, the inspector approved the assembly with a Romex Connector. . .with a ground bushing. I'd have to see a photo of that or get more description to understand what the actual inspector saw and accepted. I highly doubt that the actual romex connector, alone, is listed for use with Armored Grounding Wire, KDER.

    First off, the OP is wrongly trying to apply Article 330 Metal-Clad Cable (Type MC) rules to Armored Grounding Wire, KDER.

    Iwire (Bob) provided a link to an Appleton 7287V 1/2" Straight Box Connector that, in fact, is listed for use with Armored Grounding Wire, KDER. Listed hardware for the armor termination at an enclosure is available.

    But Hbiss (Hal) rightly raised the point that, due to the product classification and listing, the armor of Armored Grounding Wire doesn't, by Code, actually require special treatment. Because of the intimate continuous contact of armor and bare wire AND that the whole assembly of armor and wire together is grounding and bonding equipment, no NEC rules are written as there is no effective choke effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    If not, what exactly [COLOR=#ff0000]is[/COLOR] the "cable armor" the code talking about?
    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    "Armored cable" is not what 250.64 referring to. The code talks about the spiral wound steel sleeve part alone as a flexible steel conduit, not a whole armor cable in AC class.
    Please, understand the historical use of the two-word term, "cable armor".

    Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    From Post # 47

    Over the decades since 1913, the NEC has a long history of using the two-word term, [COLOR=#ff0000]Cable Armor[/COLOR], in rules about how to treat the spiral wound metal outer covering of the two, or more, insulated conductors within the manufactured cable known an Armored Cable.
    You need to apply Charlie's Rule, along with the definitions. I'm now going to quote the IEEE 100: The Authoritative Dictionary of IEEE Standards Terms seventh edition (as the seventh is the most recent that I have on my bookshelf.)

    cable armor A metallic element or envelope inserted in or around a cable sheath to provide mechanical protection against rodents, severe installation conditions, etc.
    Remember: The NFPA Glossary of Terms (read it for yourself by clicking this LINK) defines "Cable" for the NEC as "A factory assembly of [COLOR=#ff0000]two or more conductors[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000] having an overall covering."

    These last two definitions show that Armored Grounding Wire, KDER, is NOT cable. These last two definitions also show that Cable Armor is "in or around a cable sheath", and in no way names Armored Grounding Wire, KDER.

    Finally, for your edification:
    Charlie's Rule of Technical Reading
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000] It doesn't say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn't say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don't ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000] Copyright 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA [/COLOR]
    You ask:

    Originally posted by Brian Dang View Post
    Why do you think 250.64 talks about AC class armored cable in the GEC context?
    As I show above, 250.64 only talks about "cable armor" and it does not talk about "single wire armor". This is old settled Code and a product (Armored Grounding Wire, KDER) that is manufactured as grounding and bonding equipment. It is not an error that the Code is silent, in my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
    Brian, can you not accept the fact that, under the UL product description the KDER is armored wire, not cable with armor? It is a different category and may therefore be treated differently. Now if the wire inside the armor were insulated (i.e. if the product were in fact cable) then I might reach a different conclusion.
    I do, and I know KDER armored grounding wire is a total different thing for different purpose than armored cable. I also think the OP was using an armored grounding wire but failed to bond the steel armor sleeve properly per AHJ. Am I wrong?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian Dang
    replied
    Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
    "Armored Cable," type AC, has been in the NEC since the 1913 edition.

    "Armored cable" is not what 250.64 referring to. The code talks about the spiral wound steel sleeve part alone as a flexible steel conduit, not a whole armor cable in AC class. Why do you think 250.64 talks about AC class armored cable in the GEC context?

    Leave a comment:


  • al hildenbrand
    replied
    Over the decades since 1913, the NEC has a long history of using the two-word term, Cable Armor, in rules about how to treat the spiral wound metal outer covering of the two, or more, insulated conductors within the manufactured cable known an Armored Cable.

    The advent of additional NEC Chapter 3 Wiring Methods that are "cable" with an overall armor covering, such as, but not limited to, metal clad cable, have appeared and stayed. The two-word term, Cable Armor, also applies to them.

    Leave a comment:

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