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need UL for new patent grounding electrode- technology is not 8 ft long (standards)

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    #16
    I will tell you point blank, right now, that UL is NOT going to develop a standard or create a listing for anything that is patent-protected. UL will NOT become party to a proprietary marketing scheme.

    A recent example was the development of AFCI technology. UL simply refused to act on this technology until after the patent owners surrendered their rights to the 'public domain.' Only then would UL consider examining the concept.

    UL is simply not in the business of protecting your business model.

    Finally, no matter what UL says, it has no authority to over-rule any code, standard, or law. All UL does is give their independent opinion that a product meets a safety-related standard.

    Case in point: UL lists NM cable. You still cannot use NM in places that do not allow it.
    Last edited by renosteinke; 06-05-12, 10:15 AM.

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      #17
      Excellent points, Reno.

      Cheers and Stay Safe,

      Marky the Sparky

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        #18
        Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
        A piece of angle iron is not a plate. Folding the metal would encroach on the sphere of influence and make it much less effective.
        So could I take a plate and bend it at a 90 degree angle?
        Bob

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          #19
          Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
          The NEC does not define 'plate' so let's see how Webster defines it.



          We can see it's not flat, so it doesn't qualify as 'a plate'. If it were sheet metal 1/4" or thicker, it would be 'metal plate'. Webster differentiates between 'a plate', which is a shape, and 'plate metal' which is a product.

          The NEC differentiates between 'plate electrodes' (a shape) and 'electrodes of iron or steel plates' (products). It also differentiates between ferrous and non-ferrous. 'Iron or steel plates' shall be at least 1/4" thick. Non-ferrous electrodes only need to be 1.5 mm thick. Note, the non-ferrous requirement is not for 'plate metal', so it must be 'a plate' in shape to qualify.

          'Sheet metal' electrodes are not permitted.

          So, if we take 250.2 literally, the twisty thing wouldn't be permitted unless listed even if it did have the required amount of surface contact.
          So a plate that is bent is no longer a plate?

          In any case, the code does not allow for a listed electrode that does not meet the minimum standards either so listing is not an issue.
          Bob

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            #20
            In this case as long as the new product is listed as a grounding electrode, there would be no code issue.
            250.52(A)(6) Other Listed Electrodes. Other listed grounding electrodes shall be permitted.

            Don, Illinois
            (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

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              #21
              Originally posted by petersonra View Post
              So could I take a plate and bend it at a 90 degree angle?
              Can we bend a rod or a pipe at a 90 degree angle?

              I don't see where the NEC prohibits either. Great question!
              Cheers and Stay Safe,

              Marky the Sparky

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                #22
                RE: Bending electrodes

                Could we bend a 10 foot rod into a corkscrew so it could be twisted instead of driven in?

                Kind of like this, only bigger

                Cheers and Stay Safe,

                Marky the Sparky

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
                  Can we bend a rod or a pipe at a 90 degree angle?

                  I don't see where the NEC prohibits either. Great question!
                  There is that pesky 45 degree rule.
                  Bob

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by K8MHZ View Post
                    RE: Bending electrodes

                    Could we bend a 10 foot rod into a corkscrew so it could be twisted instead of driven in?

                    Kind of like this, only bigger

                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]6963[/ATTACH]
                    the code requires it be driven in. I don't think twisting it in counts.
                    Bob

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by petersonra View Post
                      There is that pesky 45 degree rule.

                      the code requires it be driven in. I don't think twisting it in counts.
                      Good points.
                      Cheers and Stay Safe,

                      Marky the Sparky

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                        #26
                        Back to the OP, if the device is patented, please provide the patent # so we can see the drawing.

                        At least if we knew exactly what you were talking about we could give you answers without guessing.
                        Cheers and Stay Safe,

                        Marky the Sparky

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by renosteinke View Post
                          A recent example was the development of AFCI technology. UL simply refused to act on this technology until after the patent owners surrendered their rights to the 'public domain.'
                          Really?

                          As far as I know each manufacturer has been secretive about how their AFCIs work. (or are supposed to work)

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                            #28
                            Each manufacturer has treated the testing circuitry as 'proprietary.' This has been the issue with third-party testers, and the reason UL calls the testers something else. (Note that, by contrast, there ARE GFCI testers.)

                            As for the actual arc fault technology, anyone is free to make their own arc fault circuit interrupter, without fear of infringing on the patents. Which, of course, is why we're able to buy Square D AFCI's. Conceivably, our Chinese friends at Unique breaker could even make them for FPE panels (and I'd love to be a fly on the wall at UL the day the samples arrive!)

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                              #29
                              Regarding the corkscrew / bent plate discussion ... look to the "Ufer" for guidance.

                              Code only states the amount of metal in contact with the concrete .... your electrode need not be straight, can even be a coil.

                              The Ufer also gives us an indication of what the OP needs to do. He needs to present the code panel with substantiation that his electrode performs at least as well as any recognized electrode, and get the panel to recognize his method. Only then can he ask UL to evaluate his product.

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                                #30
                                Its the chicken or the egg.
                                I would start with an article in the IAEI magazine. Get the inspectors on board.Go to IAEI meetings, talk to UL.
                                Moderator-Washington State
                                Ancora Imparo

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