Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Actually, Jim, you're capturing the heart of what I trying to get across. The exception to 210.70 states a switched receptacle may be permitted, and it stops there.

We install that switched receptacle in lieu of a light in a bedroom, under the assumption that a lamp will be plugged in by the resident. I'd be so bold as to think that's the intent--it's assumed someone will put the switched receptacle to it's intended use, but there is no code requiring we provide a lamp to plug into it.

The same principle applies to the dining room. There is no requirement for a lighting outlet if we install a switched receptacle under the assumption it will be put to it's intended use.

The fictional inspector in this dialogue is falling into the trap of going farther than the code requires. There might be a lamp on that someday, but that's not our concern. The code only requires the switched receptacle, not the lamp.

[ March 26, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

This is really silly. Show me the code that says you can not switch a dining room receptacle on a small appliance circuit. Really show me where it says you can not do this. If it does not say that you can't I would suggest that you can.

 

[iwire]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
This is really silly. Show me the code that says you can not switch a dining room receptacle on a small appliance circuit. Really show me where it says you can not do this. If it does not say that you can't I would suggest that you can.

Scott I agree with you about the switching.

What I have a problem with is if you try to make the SA circuit supply the required lighting outlet which absent a lighting outlet on another circuit is exactly what you would be doing.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

And when the code says a lighting outlet is required it means the j box not the fixture
Could blank everything off

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

What I have a problem with is if you try to make the SA circuit supply the required lighting outlet which absent a lighting outlet on another circuit is exactly what you would be doing.

Agreed, this is not acceptable at all. The original question asked about switching a recptacle on the sa circuit that a china cabinet would plug into. A ceiling light is already provided on another circuit. I don't see anything that would prohibit this.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Ok read 210.70 A ,real carefully.It says we can use a wall switched outlet to meet this requirement.

We already covered that a SA receptacle can be switched.

And we covered that a lamp can be (not required)pluged into a SA receptacle.

I am not saying i would do this but it seems to meet code.

Sister in law lives in apartment that has no dining room fixture.They use a lamp.

 

[charlie]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Sam, this is page four and still going.

 

[charlie]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Jim, I agree with you.

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Inspector: George, I'm a San Francisco inspector so I don't care how you and family are doing. As far as the 210.70(A)(1) Ex.1 lighting outlet, you need to also read 210.52(B)(1) Ex.1. It says:

In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1) Exception No.1, shall be permitted.

George: Oh I see, I guess I'd better get that lighting outlet connected to a general purpose circuit.

Inpectror: I also saw a piece of NM 1 17/64" from the outside edge of the stud. I hope you're not hoping to get a raise.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Inspector: George, I'm a San Francisco inspector so I don't care how you and family are doing. As far as the 210.70(A)(1) Ex.1 lighting outlet, you need to also read 210.52(B)(1) Ex.1. It says:

In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1) Exception No.1, shall be permitted.

George: Oh I see...I guess if I felt like adding a receptacle from a different general purpose branch circuit, it would be permitted. But I don't feel like it, so I don't have to.

Inspector: I also saw a piece of NM 1 17/64" from the outside edge of the stud. I hope you're not hoping to get a raise.

George: Wait a sec--if you're a San Fransisco inspector, what the heck are you doing here?!?

[ March 26, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Ok, now I see what you were getting at.

Then the exception to 210.52(B)(1) needs to be fixed, because it is unenforceable. 210.70(A)(1) doesn't define a general purpose branch circuit. Definitions define a "Branch Circuit, General Purpose" as "A branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles or outlets for lighting and appliances."

Diagram that sentence: A branch circuit that supplies (two or more receptacles) or (outlets for lighting and appliances)."

My SA is a general purpose branch circuit, much as a square is also a rectangle. A GPBC might not be an SABC, but a SABC is a GPBC. (Edit to add again: It's a GPBC with more restrictions. It can only be used for receptacles.)

Edit to add: I would not need to use an exception to 210.52(B)(1) because my receptacle is in compliance with that code. It is a receptacle on the SA circuit to serve the wall (or counter) space in the dining room. The receptacle complies, so I don't need to use the exception to permit it's existance. It exists because it's required. It just happens that one of the two receptacles on that yoke is switched.

[ March 26, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

George: Oh I see...I guess if I felt like adding a receptacle from a general purpose branch circuit, it would be permitted. But I don't feel like it, so I don't have to.

Inspector: I also saw a piece of NM 1 17/64" from the outside edge of the stud. I hope you're not hoping to get a raise.

George: Wait a sec--if you're a San Fransisco inspector, what the heck are you doing here?!?

Inspector: When a jurisdiction is having trouble with a particular electrician sometimes we're called in to handle it. We have a reputation. Mr. Stolz, if you'll please read 210.52(B)(2) you'll see that you are not allowed to connect any outlets to the SA's not specified by 210.52(B)(1).

George: But I didn......

Inspector: Let me finish. Now that you've been so difficult about it George, I can't find anything that prohibits applying 210.70(A)(1) Ex. 1 to a 210.52(B)(1) receptacle. That wouldn't make it an "other" outlet.

George: That's what I've be......

Inspector: Stop interupting. You see George, the unique writing style of CMP 2 makes it possible to come to opposing conclusions in so many cases. It's their extensive use of "talking in circles" that makes this possible.

George: So will you sign the card now?

Inspector: I don't think so Mr. Stolz. Because I'm a San Francisco inspector there's no need for me to be right to fail your work. Call it a perk.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

It looks like I have to change my position because it appears you're right.

You're pretty good at this for rookie George.

Edit: I have no doubt that the intention is that the lighting outlet not be on the SA circuits. But appearantly CMP 2 can't figure out how to write that.

[ March 26, 2005, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Now that we agree that my dining room light is legal on a switched SA outlet can i push it one step more ? I want to plug in one of them 7 watt night lights with a switch on it.Switch is on the wall and is part of the fixture .What say you now mr. inspector and i hope when you get home your mother runs out from under the porch and bites you on the leg

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Keep in mind Jim, George still didn't pass.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Ok maybe hold off on my comment till its signed off

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Would it be possible to write the NEC in simple english with no circles or gray mud ?You know something like a very clear wording on what you can and cant do.It would be priceless.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

[/QUOEdit: I have no doubt that the intention is that the lighting outlet not be on the SA circuits. But appearantly CMP 2 can't figure out how to write that.TE]

I 100% agree.But till they learn how to write i don't have to learn to read what what they didn't write

 

[physis]

Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?

Nope, ya don't.