jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
stop that im geting dizzy.just go back to racing the cars
stop that im geting dizzy.just go back to racing the cars
Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
- Thread starter davedottcom
- Start date
- Status
shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Switching a SA receptacle outlet as the required lighting outlet required by 210.70(A)(1)would be a violation of 210.52(B)(2)period!
shortcircuit2
Switching a SA receptacle outlet as the required lighting outlet required by 210.70(A)(1)would be a violation of 210.52(B)(2)period!
shortcircuit2
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
I thought we were done with this.
We did not install any other outlets,just put a legally required one to use.But if after reading all 6 pages if you care to try go for it.Gentlmen Start your engines :roll:
[ March 26, 2005, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
I thought we were done with this.
We did not install any other outlets,just put a legally required one to use.But if after reading all 6 pages if you care to try go for it.Gentlmen Start your engines :roll:
[ March 26, 2005, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
I am willing to change my mind if he can back it with code.It is a bad idea but unless you can show me a SHALL NOT i believe it passes.Well not for George ,he still dealing with that inspector that flunks just cause he can LOL
I am willing to change my mind if he can back it with code.It is a bad idea but unless you can show me a SHALL NOT i believe it passes.Well not for George ,he still dealing with that inspector that flunks just cause he can LOL
shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Well, the only other outlets allowed on a small appliance branch circuit according to 210.52(B)(2) are the exceptions for a receptacle for a clock outlet or receptacles that supply power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas fired ranges, ovens, or counter mounted cooking units.
We used to be able to supply a outside receptacle a few code cycles back, but that was removed.
shortcircuit2
Well, the only other outlets allowed on a small appliance branch circuit according to 210.52(B)(2) are the exceptions for a receptacle for a clock outlet or receptacles that supply power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas fired ranges, ovens, or counter mounted cooking units.
We used to be able to supply a outside receptacle a few code cycles back, but that was removed.
shortcircuit2
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Your missing the point.We do not have any other outlets.What we have is a duplex receptacle on a SA circuit.And that is required to be on a SA circuit.The next issue is can it be switched and the answer is yes.Next issue is there is nothing in nec that says we can not plug a lamp into a SA receptacle.And finally we are allowed to use a switched receptacle for the required lighting.
Did i miss anything ?
Your missing the point.We do not have any other outlets.What we have is a duplex receptacle on a SA circuit.And that is required to be on a SA circuit.The next issue is can it be switched and the answer is yes.Next issue is there is nothing in nec that says we can not plug a lamp into a SA receptacle.And finally we are allowed to use a switched receptacle for the required lighting.
Did i miss anything ?
shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Yes I agree as others here have that you can switch a SA receptacle outlet.
But, that can not be the lighting outlet as required by 210.70(A)(1)
Now, 210.52(B)(2) does use the wording...
"shall have no other outlets."
If we use a switched SA receptacle outlet as the lighting outlet required by 210.70(A)(1)...that would be a violation of 210.52(B)(2) because it would be a lighting outlet which is not allowed.
shortcircuit2
Yes I agree as others here have that you can switch a SA receptacle outlet.
But, that can not be the lighting outlet as required by 210.70(A)(1)
Now, 210.52(B)(2) does use the wording...
"shall have no other outlets."
If we use a switched SA receptacle outlet as the lighting outlet required by 210.70(A)(1)...that would be a violation of 210.52(B)(2) because it would be a lighting outlet which is not allowed.
shortcircuit2
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
210.52(B)(2)
210.52(B)(2)
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
There is nothing in the 2002 or 2005 code to stop me from switching a small appliance receptacle or even from plugging a lamp in this receptacle. I think that the whole forum stands in agreement with this statement.
Now comes the question, is this a violation of the NEC? No.
Next question is, will this fulfill the requirements of the NEC? No
210.70 (A) (1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
210.52 (B) (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
I am required to install a lighting outlet as outlined in 210.70. This outlet has to be a lighting outlet. If I decide to use a switched small appliance receptacle then I just made this receptacle a lighting outlet and am in violation of 210.52 (B) (1) as the small appliance circuit can have no other outlets on it.
I can plug a lamp in every receptacle in the kitchen, dinning room, pantry and so forth and still not fulfill the requirements of 210.70 (A) (1). If I am going to call one of these receptacles my lighting outlet as required by 210.70 then I have violated 210.52
I can not name the same receptacle twice.
There is nothing in the 2002 or 2005 code to stop me from switching a small appliance receptacle or even from plugging a lamp in this receptacle. I think that the whole forum stands in agreement with this statement.
Now comes the question, is this a violation of the NEC? No.
Next question is, will this fulfill the requirements of the NEC? No
210.70 (A) (1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
210.52 (B) (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
I am required to install a lighting outlet as outlined in 210.70. This outlet has to be a lighting outlet. If I decide to use a switched small appliance receptacle then I just made this receptacle a lighting outlet and am in violation of 210.52 (B) (1) as the small appliance circuit can have no other outlets on it.
I can plug a lamp in every receptacle in the kitchen, dinning room, pantry and so forth and still not fulfill the requirements of 210.70 (A) (1). If I am going to call one of these receptacles my lighting outlet as required by 210.70 then I have violated 210.52
I can not name the same receptacle twice.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Boy, I went out and worked all day and I come home to this.
7 pages on this subject. "I skipped page 4 + 5" . I had a fire chief request that I put in a 20 amp switch for each of his S.A. circuits at the kitchen, because he had been to enough kit appliance related fires in his life that he wanted to be sure the countertop appliances were all shut off when he went away to work each day. There is additional lighting in this kitchen. I say its ok to switch the dining outlets for use as lighting outlets . There is simply no code that prohibits it.
Boy, I went out and worked all day and I come home to this.
7 pages on this subject. "I skipped page 4 + 5" . I had a fire chief request that I put in a 20 amp switch for each of his S.A. circuits at the kitchen, because he had been to enough kit appliance related fires in his life that he wanted to be sure the countertop appliances were all shut off when he went away to work each day. There is additional lighting in this kitchen. I say its ok to switch the dining outlets for use as lighting outlets . There is simply no code that prohibits it.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
I'm gonna switch every recep in my house. One for the top half and one for the bottom half. I don't care if my wife doesn't like the wiremold running all over the wall. I'm too lazy for cut-in's
I'm gonna switch every recep in my house. One for the top half and one for the bottom half. I don't care if my wife doesn't like the wiremold running all over the wall. I'm too lazy for cut-in's
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
I don't care if my wife doesn't like the wiremold running all over the wall.
LOL
Wiremold ROCKS!
What's Not to like!?!
When I build my new house I'm gonna wire the Whole thing in that stuff!
There ain't no code say'n I can't!
Dave
I don't care if my wife doesn't like the wiremold running all over the wall.
LOL
Wiremold ROCKS!
What's Not to like!?!
When I build my new house I'm gonna wire the Whole thing in that stuff!
There ain't no code say'n I can't!
Dave
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
As long as the PRIMARY a.k.a. REQUIRED lighting outlet is not on the SA circuit, I do not see a problem with cord and plug connected lights on the SA circuit. My girlfriend's kitchen table has table lamp.
However, if I am going to put switched receptacles in a dining room I would use 2-gang boxes so solve wire fill problems and I would install two 20 amp circuits so that I can claim that 1 is the required SA circuit and the other can be a lighting OR small appliance circuit. Also, splitting the receptacle increases the chances of having to use triple taps.
Some places have outlawed 15 amp wiring and on the vast majority of my jobs I do not use 15 amp wiring. Not having 15 amp wiring simplifies a lot of things - I do not have to remember 2 sets of box fills and my stocking situation is less fragmented.
I have put in switches at the door for the receptacles that served personal computers in an elementary school - they wanted the computers to be most definitely off just like that fire chief.
In one commercial kitchen we had to put in an emergency stop contactor panel for the receptacles and fixed appliances. I do not know if it is a newer Ohio Building Code requirement or if the customer ( which was Empire of Akron ) was requiring it. The fire extinguishing system for the fume hood had to have one of its auxiliary switches connected to this too.
As long as the PRIMARY a.k.a. REQUIRED lighting outlet is not on the SA circuit, I do not see a problem with cord and plug connected lights on the SA circuit. My girlfriend's kitchen table has table lamp.
However, if I am going to put switched receptacles in a dining room I would use 2-gang boxes so solve wire fill problems and I would install two 20 amp circuits so that I can claim that 1 is the required SA circuit and the other can be a lighting OR small appliance circuit. Also, splitting the receptacle increases the chances of having to use triple taps.
Some places have outlawed 15 amp wiring and on the vast majority of my jobs I do not use 15 amp wiring. Not having 15 amp wiring simplifies a lot of things - I do not have to remember 2 sets of box fills and my stocking situation is less fragmented.
I have put in switches at the door for the receptacles that served personal computers in an elementary school - they wanted the computers to be most definitely off just like that fire chief.
In one commercial kitchen we had to put in an emergency stop contactor panel for the receptacles and fixed appliances. I do not know if it is a newer Ohio Building Code requirement or if the customer ( which was Empire of Akron ) was requiring it. The fire extinguishing system for the fume hood had to have one of its auxiliary switches connected to this too.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
OK 7 pages later and all we have come up with is simply this it is ok to switch a S.A. receptacle or 1/2 of it to stay code compliant since the NEC says receptacle.It doesn`t meet required switched receptacle lighting requirement since they shall serve no other outlet unless your clock has a light in that case all is ok
Larry is going to wire his next house in wiremold and P off his wife (
OK 7 pages later and all we have come up with is simply this it is ok to switch a S.A. receptacle or 1/2 of it to stay code compliant since the NEC says receptacle.It doesn`t meet required switched receptacle lighting requirement since they shall serve no other outlet unless your clock has a light in that case all is ok
Larry is going to wire his next house in wiremold and P off his wife (
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
Larry, you are an inspector, you can't be running Wiremold without a permit and an inspection.
Larry, you are an inspector, you can't be running Wiremold without a permit and an inspection.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Switched Din. Rm. Outlet?
This is so simple that a blind man could see it but for some reason some in here just can?t look in the right direction.
I agree that we can switch a small appliance circuit and also agree that we can plug anything we want to in these receptacles, but this does not fulfill the requirements of 210.70
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
To switch a small appliance receptacle for the required lighting outlet and not install a lighting outlet as required by 210.70 is to use this receptacle in violation of 210.52 (B) (2) which states ?The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.?
As long as the requirements of 210.70 (A) (1) has been fulfilled by either a 15 or 20 amp circuit, then do what you want. You are not allowed to use a small appliance branch circuit to fulfill the requirements of 210.70 with out being in violation of 210.52.
Both the ?02 and ?05 hand books has some pictures and explanations on this matter.
The original post was could a lighted China Cabinet be switched from a dinning room circuit and the answer is yes. This has been turned into can a switched small appliance circuit be used in lieu of the lighting outlet and the answer is NO!!!!
This is so simple that a blind man could see it but for some reason some in here just can?t look in the right direction.
I agree that we can switch a small appliance circuit and also agree that we can plug anything we want to in these receptacles, but this does not fulfill the requirements of 210.70
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
To switch a small appliance receptacle for the required lighting outlet and not install a lighting outlet as required by 210.70 is to use this receptacle in violation of 210.52 (B) (2) which states ?The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.?
As long as the requirements of 210.70 (A) (1) has been fulfilled by either a 15 or 20 amp circuit, then do what you want. You are not allowed to use a small appliance branch circuit to fulfill the requirements of 210.70 with out being in violation of 210.52.
Both the ?02 and ?05 hand books has some pictures and explanations on this matter.
The original post was could a lighted China Cabinet be switched from a dinning room circuit and the answer is yes. This has been turned into can a switched small appliance circuit be used in lieu of the lighting outlet and the answer is NO!!!!
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