Home PF Correctin

[LarryFine]

One thing I keep in mind during these discussions is that a capacitor must be recharged between discharges, and the power has to come from somewhere. So, the caps merely take in and release energy twice per cycle; they don't produce energy.

My understanding about poor PF and the POCO is that their equipment must be sized to carry the reactive current along with the normal current. The reactive current doesn't have to actually be generated, because it bounces back and forth between the source and the load, but must be carried by the system.

By "shunting" the reactive current with local PF correction, we relieve the supply system of the burden of carrying reactive power along with the real power. But, as I said above, they don't add anything to the system. Is my understanding accurate? There's no such thing as a free lunch?

So much for negative horsepower, eh? :grin:

Yeah, and just when we thought someone had invented anti-gravity, or warp drive, or something. :smile:

 

[gar]

090509-2231 EST

Larry:

You are correct that if the power company has to supply reactive current over their system it is an extra cost to them.


K8MHZ:

There is negative horsepower just like negative watts. That is what you have in a hybrid that uses regenerative braking.

Horsepower is just another unit of measure of power. In a mechanical system you can have power flow from a motor or engine to a generator, or the generator can become a motor and send power to whatever is connected to its shaft.

Consider an AC synchronous motor driving a conveyor. Depending upon the rotor excitation this can be a motor moving the conveyor, call this positive power, or with different excitation it is a generator sending power from the inertia of the conveyor to what was previously its source of power, this is negative power.

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[LarryFine]

There is negative horsepower just like negative watts. That is what you have in a hybrid that uses regenerative braking.

Horsepower is just another unit of measure of power. In a mechanical system you can have power flow from a motor or engine to a generator, or the generator can become a motor and send power to whatever is connected to its shaft.

Consider an AC synchronous motor driving a conveyor. Depending upon the rotor excitation this can be a motor moving the conveyor, call this positive power, or with different excitation it is a generator sending power from the inertia of the conveyor to what was previously its source of power, this is negative power.

Isn't this like the out-of-phase VS opposite-polarity center-tappped-secondary discussion?

What you're calling "negative power" is really 'positive power' flowing the other way, right.

It's like saying that subtraction is really adding a negative number. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[mivey]

Isn't this like the out-of-phase VS opposite-polarity center-tappped-secondary discussion?

What you're calling "negative power" is really 'positive power' flowing the other way, right.

It's like saying that subtraction is really adding a negative number. It's all a matter of perspective.

That's correct. You can look at this from the load or the supply perspective.

We generally look at it from the load perspective, so when the instantaneous voltage and current have the same sign, the load is storing energy (positive power), and when the voltage and current have opposite signs, the load is releasing energy (negative power).

The reverse would be true from the supply perspective, with the same readings.

 

[gar]

090510-0807 EST

K8MHZ:

The UL issue is of no importance in this discussion. We are not talking about using the PowerSaver. The issue is does the device do what is claimed. It does not do what is claimed, i.e., its use does not save the user any money on their electric bill.

There needs to be a way found to prevent the PowerSaver from being sold to uneducated consumers. That is the real issue. If it was not sold, then UL listing has no significance.

On the TED device. It generally performs a useful function. It has software and/or hardware problems. But this does not mean you can not get positive useful information from it, and it has the potential to save some customers more than they pay for it.

In this discussion the TED unit is only being used as a test tool. No need for UL for this purpose. UL would not make it a better or worse product for this purpose. Probably the best tool for the test being performed would be a standard spinning disk watt-hour meter because this most closely represents what one wants to prove. However, a two coil electrodynamometer wattmeter with appropriate full scale range probably would be the most convenient tool.

When I asked Energy, Inc. why they did not run the product thru UL I got a rather inadequate answer. From a UL point of view I see at least one area I would question. This is the size (mechanical strength), and insulation thickness of the wire from the current transformer to the power calculation module.

I am not in the business of selling TED type devices, and if I was I might not sell the TED. I would want to market something that was somewhat better. But there is really a major question of price vs performance and what the typical customer would really need.

I do have about a month's use of TED in my home. On average I am probably cutting my energy consumption by a very approximate 25%. This the PowerSaver can never do. To make use of TED to reduce power consumption I have to do work (run around and turn lights off), it is not automatic.

I am leaving fewer computers and printers on when not actually in use. But a big factor is my wife leaving lights on that do not need to be on. What this says is that I need to work a non-annoying occupancy sensor system for turning the lights off. This probably does not mean automatic turn on. If I have a short off delay, then how do I solve the shower problem? A sensor in the shower won't work. I could monitor water flow as part of the off criteria. So there are many questions to making an effective auto off system.

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[LarryFine]

. . . I need to work a non-annoying occupancy sensor system for turning the lights off. This probably does not mean automatic turn on. If I have a short off delay, then how do I solve the shower problem? A sensor in the shower won't work. I could monitor water flow as part of the off criteria. So there are many questions to making an effective auto off system.

Welcome to the world of home automation.

 

[ttdezo]

manufacturer

manufacturer

gar! I did those wire swaps and ct changes but readings remained the same.

And the good news for today. I've found the manufacturer.

WWW.kvarenergysavings.com
Take a good look at this , there are many links there.
Looks like it is a legit company, legit product, $21M projected sales for 2008.
Expending worldwide, looking for distributors.

I might run another test next week in my garage. This time with a watt meter in a residential meter socket. Same load for a day or so with /without ps1200.
If this box slows down that electro mechanic meter I'll get a distributor appl. form. dan

 

[brian john]

KVAR Energy Controller (KEC)
Save 6% to 50% on your energy bill for home, business, or commercial setting. *
Save on energy costs, eliminate energy waste, increase the life of your appliances, and surge protection for your home or establishment.

Even higher savings realized for commercial and industrial applications.


Legit??????? They lost any claim to legitimate when they claim UP TO 50% SAVINGS even more in commercial and industrial applications.

 

[ohmhead]

x power savor scam

x power savor scam

Well check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nj-Ddg9XCA

If you have to much capacitance in circuit you will use power from that device !

as one can not build a power factor saving device its not possible watts used is watts needed to do work in circuit .

 

[K8MHZ]

Has anyone wondered how a 'one size fit's all' PF correction device can even be possible?

Obviously, it can't.

And as far as negative watts go, in AC there is several forms of impedance, resistive, capacitve, inductive and REMF. They are not negative energy, they are oppostitions to current flow.

I think you are trying to label an opposition to current flow as a form of negative power. I don't see it that way.

OK, so let's take the issue down to the basics. Let's say we have a simple set up. A motor, a small generator, a watt-hour meter and a PowerSaver.

As the generator runs the motor we can monitor the watt-hour meter AND the energy put forth by the generator. Now we engage the PowerSaver. One of three things will happen. One, the generator will mystically require less energy to power the same load as before, which I doubt, as sufficient reduction in power would dictate a possibility of a perpetual motion device. Or, the required generator power is reduced because of impedance which also reduces the power of the motor. Possible, but far from desirable. OR, the amount of energy required to power the generator remains the same and the watt-hour meter read less, which is actually stealing power from the supplier.

What else could there be?

Although I see some redeeming factors in testing these devices, if I took the time to test every 'energy saving' device I have seen over the decades that's all I would have time to do, and most of it would be a waste of time simply supporting my suspicions and of no value to anyone but the 'faithful' should they decide to become enlightened to the point of returning to common sense and reality.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. Sometimes in my haste to share my disgust for charlatans I come off as taking shots at the messenger.

 

[ohmhead]

Well one size does not fit any circuit meaning a home or commercial application . The service must be tuned as a inductive or capacitive circuit like a resonant circuit to match load .
Each load calculated and tested in the field then just the correct amount of capacitance added to circuit to over come inductance . These come with MOVs installed and claim savings but in fact a mov will limit your voltage at rated mov voltage if it exceeds that voltage it basically shorts this to ground by the metal oxide varistor this is a waste of power heat is generated .
And the extra capacitance is increasing the voltage applied actually reactive by nature uses power in that energy saving box !!

Extra capacitance in circuit is bad news for your electronics the little voltage regulators internal now work twice as hard to limit the increase in voltage more heat more waste .

One power savor is not for all . and it does not work by the service entrance meaning the main panel disconnect as they claim .
It is for a motor or a inductance type of load must be located near the actual pf correction load . Take care

 

[gar]

090510-1934 EST

ttdezo:

The next experiment to run with the TED unit and your PowerSaver is this:

Only connect the PS1200. This should read 100 W per your previous measurements.
Turn off one phase to the PS1200. What is reading?
Repeat for the other phase.

Reconnect PS1200 to both phases.

Next load one phase with a 50 W bulb. What is the TED reading?
Change to a 100 W bulb. TED reading?
Change to a 200 W bulb. TED reading?

Repeat the above on the other phase.

.

 

[ttdezo]

bulb

bulb

gar. I can do that but who sells 50w bulbs?
25-40-60-65-75-95-100-150-200 can be found
I'll ask my supplier.

K8MHZ . These guys are charlatans we all know that. I've been asked to prove it. Nobody believes me. Even electrical contractors selling and installing this device here in Sarasota.

 

[gar]

090511-0625 EST

ttdezo:

I have no idea. I think at one time a 50 W existed. It does not matter. Use a 40 or 60.

Here is the idea behind the experiment. I want to sweep the resistive load from 0 W to about 2 times the reading you get with the PS1200 when it is the only connected load.

If the 100 reading from the PS1200 is in fact a negative reading, then the addition of the following resistive load values should produce readings of:
Resistive Reading
Wattage
... 0 ....... 100
.. 50 ........ 50
. 100 ....... 0
. 150 ....... 50
. 200 ....... 100
.

If the 100 reading is really the capacitor losses, meaning a positive 100 W, then adding resistive load should produce:
Resistive Reading
Wattage
... 0 ....... 100
.. 50 ........ 150
. 100 ....... 200
. 150 ....... 250
. 200 ....... 300

If this is the result, then try to find the resistive load where
Pload = Preading

In other words try to find the resistive load where the transition from the reading being larger to smaller than the applied resistive load occurs.

Note: there is some variance in actual wattage of a particular bulb relative to its label.

.

 

[K8MHZ]

K8MHZ . These guys are charlatans we all know that. I've been asked to prove it. Nobody believes me. Even electrical contractors selling and installing this device here in Sarasota.

Well obviously I believe you and I do appreciate your efforts.

I will start looking for an old meter. I have meter sockets. Using the same type of meter the POCOs use will be critical in order for you to convince people of your results.

If I can find a meter (I have had many chances to get them it's just that I already have enough electrical and radio stuff here and never had a use for one) I will gladly ship you the meter and the can in exchange for a copy of your results. If you do have a meter and all you need is a socket, I get them for free and will be happy to send one your way.

Cheers,

 

[mivey]

gar. I can do that but who sells 50w bulbs?

Parallel two 100's.

Add: maybe not, the temperature might not be right.

 

[Besoeker]

Well one size does not fit any circuit meaning a home or commercial application . The service must be tuned as a inductive or capacitive circuit like a resonant circuit to match load

I know what you are getting at. But it's more correctly inductive reactance and capacitice reactance you want to match and (nearly) cancel. The reactance depends on supply frequency rather than the natural LC resonance frequency. In fact, natural resonance is best avoided in most cases.
I measured this current waveform a couple of weeks ago:

The fundamental is 50 Hz (UK) but clearly there is a whole bundle of other frequencies mixed in.
Not good.

 

[gar]

090511-1339 EST

Besoeker:

What system produced that result? How much did it affect the source voltage?

Looks fairly symmetrical. Flipping the negative half wave over and shifting 10 MS to the right would produce a reasonably good correlation.

.

 

[Besoeker]

090511-1339 EST

Besoeker:

What system produced that result? How much did it affect the source voltage?

One of the promoted "energy savers".
The source voltage was affected very little.

Looks fairly symmetrical. Flipping the negative half wave over and shifting 10 MS to the right would produce a reasonably good correlation.

Indeed. No even harmonics.

 

[Besoeker]

Parallel two 100's.

That would be 200W.