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[ttdezo]

power saver mystery

power saver mystery

I decided to test that power saver gray box and the result is quite surprising.
I bought TED 101, installed at home in my panel , clamp ons before main breaker,worked fine.
Then I borrowed a Power Saver1200, hooked up to a double 20A spare.
House was running, A/C on off , fridge etc. When the load stabilized for a while I just turned PS1200 on , off, see what happens.
Result : PS1200 REDUCED my watt load by 70-80 watts all the time.
No exception.
Anybody can explain that to me? Dan

 

[markstg]

A Watt is a unit of power.

A Watt is a measure of Real Power.

 

[Besoeker]

A Watt is a measure of Real Power.

Yes. Power.

 

[weressl]

A Watt is a measure of Real Power.

So then what is the measure of unreal power?

Watt is a unit of power.

 

[Besoeker]

I decided to test that power saver gray box and the result is quite surprising.
I bought TED 101, installed at home in my panel , clamp ons before main breaker,worked fine.
Then I borrowed a Power Saver1200, hooked up to a double 20A spare.
House was running, A/C on off , fridge etc. When the load stabilized for a while I just turned PS1200 on , off, see what happens.
Result : PS1200 REDUCED my watt load by 70-80 watts all the time.
No exception.
Anybody can explain that to me? Dan

How exactly did you measure the power?

 

[weressl]

OK...I'm going out on a limb here! Was I asleep in apprenticeship, or is there actually a loss of power delivered when PF goes out of synch? If true, then correction would improve power delivered thereby reducing total consumption...right? The guy who brought up the fact that modern motor-driven appliances contain PF correction from the factory reveals the validity of that concept (even though he goes on to argue against the validity of the correction devices?)! So, help me out here! Rather than re-stating the 'scam' claim; provide an intelligent explanation. If you feel that the residential meter doesn't see PF, explain why...and then how the 'commercial' industry metering differs to include that. Let's be thorough and scientific! Thanks

I think it is a mistaken belief that appliances are equipped with power factor correction. The start and run capacitors are installed for functional purposes, not pf correction, although they do have an efect on the power factor.

Large users have different electrical contracts and pay significantly lower rates than small customers. The pf 'penalty' is built into small customers rates.

 

[gar]

090508-0946 EST

ttdezo:

Do you have the Footprints software? If not you need it.

My bench tests on TED indicate it is quite good at measuring power. In other words rejecting the reactive component of the current. With a resistive load and a relatively large capacitive shunt there was very little change in the power reading. I believe I reported on the results in a different thread. I do not have time now to search for it.

The TED software will allow you to see a plot of voltage and power. With this you can run a much more controlled experiment. Your current experiment is not sufficiently controlled. However, it is sufficient to basically prove that the PowerSaver1200 can not do much for you. I really doubt that there is always a change of 70-80 watts.

One test to run is all loads off, then connect the PowerSaver. Another is only a 1500 W heater with and without PowerSaver, and monitoring voltage across the 1500 W heater. These you can do without the software. But you do need a voltmeter that can read with a resolution of 0.1 V.

.

 

[markstg]

So then what is the measure of unreal power?

Watt is a unit of power.

I was just trying to clarify that there are 3 units of measure for Power....
Watt = Real Power
VAR = Reactive Power (VAR stands for Volt Amp Reactive)
VA = Apparent Power.

So just saying power doesn't identify what type power you are talking about, and since this thread is all about the 3 different power types, OK, never mind.

 

[gar]

090508-1036 EST

markstg:

If one uses the word "power" without modification, then it means the rate of doing work, for example: ft-pounds/minute. The rate of doing work was the original meaning. One conversion factor is one horsepower equals 33,000 ft-lb/min.

See "The History of Horsepower" at www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

.

 

[Jraef]

090508-0946 EST

ttdezo:

Do you have the Footprints software? If not you need it.

My bench tests on TED indicate it is quite good at measuring power. In other words rejecting the reactive component of the current. With a resistive load and a relatively large capacitive shunt there was very little change in the power reading. I believe I reported on the results in a different thread. I do not have time now to search for it.

The TED software will allow you to see a plot of voltage and power. With this you can run a much more controlled experiment. Your current experiment is not sufficiently controlled. However, it is sufficient to basically prove that the PowerSaver1200 can not do much for you. I really doubt that there is always a change of 70-80 watts.

One test to run is all loads off, then connect the PowerSaver. Another is only a 1500 W heater with and without PowerSaver, and monitoring voltage across the 1500 W heater. These you can do without the software. But you do need a voltmeter that can read with a resolution of 0.1 V.

.

I agree with this approach; trust but verify. I find it hard to believe that, regardless of turning the A/C on-off and the fridge cycling on-off etc., the watt reduction remains constant. That to me has an aroma of measurement error or the unit somehow "tricking" the meter. Now mind you, if it can trick the TED meter and it can trick the utility kWh meter in the same manner, you WOULD end up saving money, but not energy.

 

[ttdezo]

Guys, this is what we have here.
The manufacturer of this gray box claims that his box reduces electric bill. This is a patented box, they claim this is a power saver device. I do not know what is inside.
Since we pay for true power, / active power/ Watt, this claim means it can reduce billable KWhour for the costumer. This is a nationally promoted product, you can see it on TV, in newspapers , online , everywhere.
They claim it was tested in several labs , including universities, came back positive.
Google Power Saver1200for more.
Pretty obvious that this is basically a capacitor.
A general contractor asked me about it and I told him it's a scam ,forget it.
He asked me to prove that it was a scam , gave me one to test it.
That's where I bought TED 1001 . Google Ted 1001 and see what it does and how. I asked Ted's seller and asked him about this device. He said TED1001
measures watt , not Va , there is a chip in the transmitter to factor in power factor. So we measuring here Watt , not VA.
Then I installed TED. Worked just fine . I did not install footprints because I don't need it at this point .What I need is the current watt load on my panel , at this very moment so I'm able to see how my watt load changes when I turn Power Saver1200 on and off.
This where it gets weird. Power Saver reduces my current watt load reading on TEd all the time when it is on.
What is going on here?
I've got to go today. Tomorrow , / Saturday/ I'll run another test with selected loads. Only range is on, only A/C is running nothing else,etc.
I'll post my results, until then please let me know what do you think about this matter. dan

 

[markstg]

A Watt meter would show true power.

Yes, but there is true power, and apparent power.
It's important to know the difference...

This is all I was saying. Generally the type of power one is talking about is understood from the context of the discussion. But when one is talking about all 3 perhaps it is better to be as clear as possible.

If I'm asked how much power does the load draw, If I answered 30000 I'm not sure the asker would know whether I was giving KVA or KW. But I guess that's just me.

 

[Ass't Lord-High Commish]

Glad to see we're making some progress...

Glad to see we're making some progress...

I'm continuing to enjoy the theoretic debate about these contraptions, but am very glad to see some practical testing being done!
Once again the real question at issue is: how does the residential meter measure the power consumed? This leads of course to the question: does your TED work like your utility meter, or not? If the TED is similar in function to your house meter, then it does look as though the measured power might be reduced by these capacitive devices (even though it could only be advantageous in a somewhat reactive system).
:wink: Forgive me but, I doubt many of us are really concerned so much about whether or not we're saving the planet by saving real energy, so much as we are concerned about how much our next utility bill is going to be!
It seems the most conclusive test result can only be achieved by a carefully controlled residential metering of consistent power usage with, and without capactors installed which is an opportunity most of us will never have.
However, if there were someone out there who had a separately metered well pump serving a sizeable holding tank whose water consumption was relatively consistent, we could certainly get closer to resolution!

 

[mivey]

I'm continuing to enjoy the theoretic debate about these contraptions, but am very glad to see some practical testing being done!
Once again the real question at issue is: how does the residential meter measure the power consumed? This leads of course to the question: does your TED work like your utility meter, or not? If the TED is similar in function to your house meter, then it does look as though the measured power might be reduced by these capacitive devices (even though it could only be advantageous in a somewhat reactive system).
:wink: Forgive me but, I doubt many of us are really concerned so much about whether or not we're saving the planet by saving real energy, so much as we are concerned about how much our next utility bill is going to be!
It seems the most conclusive test result can only be achieved by a carefully controlled residential metering of consistent power usage with, and without capactors installed which is an opportunity most of us will never have.
However, if there were someone out there who had a separately metered well pump serving a sizeable holding tank whose water consumption was relatively consistent, we could certainly get closer to resolution!

I am not so much interested in sticking capacitors in and out of the system at the panel. That is not going to reduce the kWh consumption in the house. To do that, you will have to change the way the load in the house is consuming power.

If you could change the voltage or something like that, fine but I just don't see that happening.

I am more interested in the details in how the measurements were taken.

Usually, you can't get something for nothing. A catalyst creates a shortcut path, and you can sort of get something for nothing, but that is a different story. This unit is not a catalyst that allows the devices in your home to use less energy.

I'm not interested in seeing how this thing is saving the customer energy, as I am convinced it is not. I am more interested in how it makes you think it is saving the customer energy.

 

[jim dungar]

There is no doubt how an electro-mechanical KWH meter works or what it measures. Plain and simple it measures KW used. When the utility wants to impose a Power Factor charge on a customer, it adds a second electro-mechanical device to measure the KVAR used. Two separate devices for two separate measurements. The 'internal workings' of these electro-mechanical devices has been worked out for almost 100 years.

This website http://watthourmeters.com/ is devoted to the history of the KWH meter.

This is a link to a textbook discussion of watthour meter construction. http://books.google.com/books?id=hC...a=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA4,M1

 

[gar]

090508-2039 EST

ttdezo:

My bench test on a TED unit implied good capability to reject the reactive component. With a 75 W bulb and adding a 22 ufd capacitor produced no change. But this does not tell me what happens at 5000 W resistive and a capacitor large enough to produce a reactive component equal in magnitude to the resistive component.

Note: the TED specification has a +/-2% of reading accuracy. Clearly that is not a completely correct statement. It can not be that accurate at 100 W because resolution is 10 W. At 5000 W I could expect an error of +/-100 W and be within specification.

One test you need to perform is no load, and then connect the Power Saver and see what change occurs on the TED unit. I am assuming the TED current transformers are on the lines feeding the main panel, and that the PowerSaver is connected thru a two pole breaker to the main panel buses.

TED only derives voltage from one phase but uses this to calculate power for both phases. A spinning disk watt-hour meter uses one voltage, the sum of the two phases.

You need to be measuring voltages for a more accurate experiment.

Your experiment so far has proven that the PowerSaver does not produce a 25% saving. It does not even produce a 2% saving. Below this you can not prove anything.

.

 

[rattus]

Yes, but:

Yes, but:

It is conceivable to reduce wiring losses by a few watts in a residence, but for this to happen, the caps must be sized according to the load and PF, must be located at the load, and must be switched in and out as needed. I doubt that one little gray box can do that.

One could wire in a cap at the contactor in one's AC unit, but the initial cost and potential replacement costs could easily outweigh any savings which might result.

 

[Besoeker]

A couple of links:

Nice testimonial:
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/power-save-1200-recapture-your-electricity-line-loss.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejXFD8NJpik

This youtube clip is interesting it that the ONLY measurement made is current.
At one point the demonstrator says:

The power factor is fairly poor so it?s had a fairly good impact on the power consumption,

Apart from it being just plain wrong, that makes it quite clear to me that it's just power factor correction. And, if it's mounted at the incoming supply, it can't even save any of the small amount of losses in the wiring.

 

[gar]

090509-0825 EST

The youtube video is clearly a fraudulent sales pitch.

As mentioned they are selling a current change as a MAJOR means of saving power (energy) which it is not.

Second the test is done on an unloaded motor and that has a very high ratio of reactive to resistive current components as compared to the same motor fully loaded.

Why some university would want their name attached to a product sales pitch that is fraudulent is strange. That is not good publicity.


Ordinary spinning disk KWH meters are analog devices, so are two coil wattmeters. Any analog device will have scaling errors, linearity errors, and zero drift errors. There will be other kinds of errors as well. Even instruments that are digital will have similar errors. Some of these result from the inherent analog inputs, others may result from the digital algorithms used.

Based on my discussion of accuracy of the instrumentation in my previous post a reading change of 100 W out of 5000 W may have no meaning with respect the energy used. All this change can fall within the accuracy specification of the instrument.

.

 

[Besoeker]

090509-0825 EST

The youtube video is clearly a fraudulent sales pitch.
As mentioned they are selling a current change as a MAJOR means of saving power (energy) which it is not.

Yes, it is either ignorance or lying neither of which reflects well on the product.

If youtube presentations had to abide by the UK Advertising Standards Agency guidelines, this kind of thing would not be permitted. I'm sure the US has similar standards. I suspect they don't have jurisdiction over what is published on the internet though.