Cha Ching

[jim dungar]

You would have to use 601 amp fuses to bolt into an 800 amp switch.

Most fuse manufacturers now offer 800A frame size Class L fuses with ratings as low as 400A. I don't know when this started, maybe just the past few years, but I do know they exist.

 

[zog]

It's actually a 1200 amp panel with an 800a main in it. Three additional 2?" pipes were installed from the transformer. So in the future, the service could readily be upgraded without changing the panel.

Good planning for whoever speced that panel.

 

[celtic]

Who called for the ESI and CT/meter locations?

Building was burned and rebuilt - meter locale was where original were located as per engineer and POCO.

Clearly...something changed between the fire and rebirth ~ which would require an ESI be performed...

Electrical engineer specified 800A,

. PSE&G says that they only have 600A available.

Q: Where is the paper trail to the ESI?
A: Lost

I have worked with the engineer before and he is not very yielding on anything that he specs.

Somethings going to have to give...and it probably won't be the POCO.
They have given you an option...what is the EE's position?

 

[Cold Fusion]

Sounds like a double whammy from the POCO, which has engineers, and the design engineer. When is it proper for an electrician to tell two college educated engineers that they don't know crap? ...:roll:

Uhhhh --- Most every day of this forum?:grin::grin:
cf

 

[mayanees]

Sounds like a double whammy from the POCO, which has engineers, and the design engineer. When is it proper for an electrician to tell two college educated engineers that they don't know crap? Why pay them big bucks if we have to redesign it to make to work? The POCO engineer needs to work it out with the electrical engineer. We are not the ones with the degrees:roll:

Agreed.

Speaking as an engineer, I think it's my responsibility to determine the available power options and incorporate that into the design. Whether it's single or 3-phase, 3-wire, or 4-wire, POCO available voltages....

When is it proper to tell the educated engineer that he's clueless?? As soon as you see it! That's where they/we/I learn.

John M

 

[muckusmc]

Agreed.

Speaking as an engineer, I think it's my responsibility to determine the available power options and incorporate that into the design. Whether it's single or 3-phase, 3-wire, or 4-wire, POCO available voltages....

When is it proper to tell the educated engineer that he's clueless?? As soon as you see it! That's where they/we/I learn.

John M

But what is one to do when the engineer totally disregards what your pointing out and insist that your wrong. Then tells you that, unless you install as per his specs, he will refuse to sign off on the project?

 

[iwire]

It's actually a 1200 amp panel with an 800a main in it. Three additional 2?" pipes were installed from the transformer. So in the future, the service could readily be upgraded without changing the panel.

Good planning for whoever speced that panel.

It is great planing when the service size could be increased at some point in the future.

In the OPs case from the power company's perspective there is no point in the future that the service size could be increased from 600 to 800 amps single phase so I can understand the power company's reluctance to accept an 800 amp switch.

I think it falls on both the EC and EE, 800 amp single phase is not common and should of been a big red flag.

That is exactly how I see it.

Sometimes gaining experience is painful.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I've heard this before POCO maxes single phase at 600 amps. If the EE normally works in this juridiction then I would think it's really his problem He is the educated person.
I really am getting tired of the Educated person EE who is authorized to place his stamp on the print blaming the EC contractor who usually has not been as highly educated and cannot place a stamp certify them as legitimate.

 

[iwire]

So an EC is stupid and should not recognize the unusual?

I think I feel insulted.:-?

 

[Sierrasparky]

So an EC is stupid and should not recognize the unusual?

I think I feel insulted.:-?

I did not say we EC are stupid. I am just getting tired of the higher educated not taking responsiblity for their actions.
In most areas EC cannot stamp plans. The whole purpose of that stamp is to attest that plan was properly designed by a licensed EE.

The EE makes the error and the EC pays the price. The EE still gets paid by the owner.

 

[mayanees]

But what is one to do when the engineer totally disregards what your pointing out and insist that your wrong. Then tells you that, unless you install as per his specs, he will refuse to sign off on the project?

muckusmc,

At that point if I were the EC I would document your difference in opinion, and copy folks associated with the job, including the POCO.
Depending on the construction process that might take the form of a Request for Information. Or if it's more informal, perhaps an email to all parties concerned.

You could also file a complaint with the Engineering License Board for the State in which the job is being installed. I'm on the DE Association of Professional Engineer's Law Enforcement and Ethics committee and if an electrician (anyone) were to file a complaint against an engineer for any reason, the complaint would be promptly investigated and all parties may be contacted for resolution. Hopefully it wouldn't come to that, but if the engineer were incompetent and unwilling to discuss the situation, there's always that complaint option.

I know from my experience that a good engineer maintains working relationships with all parties involved to avoid problems.. from EC to POCO to GC to plumber to carpenter.....and on and on...

Good Luck!

John M

 

[petersonra]

The way I see it is that you agreed to supply something a third party won't let you supply.

I don't see how the engineer can be blamed alone if you agreed to it. It seems like it is something that can be done, just not at this location.

If the load calcs require 800A, I don't see that changing it to 600A solves anything.

I think a conference call between yourself, the POCO, and the engineer is in order.

 

[iwire]

I did not say we EC are stupid. I am just getting tired of the higher educated not taking responsibility for their actions.
In most areas EC cannot stamp plans. The whole purpose of that stamp is to attest that plan was properly designed by a licensed EE.

The EE makes the error and the EC pays the price. The EE still gets paid by the owner.

I have done enough jobs to know engineers make mistakes, I also know that ECs do as well and they are also licensed professionals.

No matter how well trained or educated anyone is they can and will make mistakes.

Hopefully the EE in this case will share the responsibility with the EC and work out a solution.

 

[rr]

Both the Engineer and the EC should have coordinated with the POCO. Engineer on the initial design side. And EC on the bidding end.

 

[hillbilly1]

Both the Engineer and the EC should have coordinated with the POCO. Engineer on the initial design side. And EC on the bidding end.

Yea, an estimator has time to review and check the engineers work on every job they take off I know mistakes can be made, but holding the EC responsible for what engineer does is putting the blame on the wrong party. It is a service to the engineer if the EC does find a problem and brings it to their attention. The EC's job ONCE they have the contract is to coordinate the installation of the electrical equipment, if their is a design issue, they coordinate with the engineer for a solution. If the EC redesigns something without the engineers approval, the lawyers will be more than happy to point it out if something goes wrong.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I have done enough jobs to know engineers make mistakes, I also know that ECs do as well and they are also licensed professionals.

No matter how well trained or educated anyone is they can and will make mistakes.

Hopefully the EE in this case will share the responsibility with the EC and work out a solution.

The reason I felt " let the EE hang (figuratively) on this one because the EC spoke with the EE and he emphatically said do it the way I drew it"
If have been in this situation before. The EE needs to be on the hook for it. I recenty had a EE knowingly provide false load calcs in order to fall within a 100 a service. When I called him on it he just re-ran the numbers and left out the AC units. When I called him on that he added the condesers and left out the FAU's . I went round an round with him on this. I finally had to hire my own EE and back-charge the owner.!

 

[480sparky]

.........If have been in this situation before. The EE needs to be on the hook for it. I recenty had a EE knowingly provide false load calcs in order to fall within a 100 a service. When I called him on it he just re-ran the numbers and left out the AC units. When I called him on that he added the condesers and left out the FAU's . I went round an round with him on this. I finally had to hire my own EE and back-charge the owner.!

Just to keep it a hundred amp service????? Seems like thousands of dollars spent to save a hundred bucks.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Just to keep it a hundred amp service????? Seems like thousands of dollars spent to save a hundred bucks.

Well the cost to pull in new service the owner a corporate chain was unwilling to upgrade service. 110 feet no extra meters larger than 100 at the MSB.

The problem that drove the calc up was the footage of track. And
of course the 3 AC units. long and continuous loads.

 

[steve66]

I always try to coordinate my designs with the POCO. But they always change their minds as soon as construction is ready to start.

So I put a note on my drawings for the contractor to coordinate with the utility before starting construction.

But in this case I have to agree that if the contractor asked, and the engineer said "do it my way", that the blame lies with the engineer.

 

[rr]

I always try to coordinate my designs with the POCO. But they always change their minds as soon as construction is ready to start.

So I put a note on my drawings for the contractor to coordinate with the utility before starting construction.

But in this case I have to agree that if the contractor asked, and the engineer said "do it my way", that the blame lies with the engineer.

I do the same thing with my drawings. But I like going a step further. Putting the contact name and number of the POCO/Telephone/Cable TV representative on the drawings as well for coordination.