Tub space and receptacles

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eds

Senior Member
I would think that if you filled the tub, any thing past the area that the water spilled out of the sides would be outside the tub space. I would also say that a receptacle installed above the tub on the ceiling in this footprint would be a violation. I also would like to ask if the receptacle box is the type that the recep is recessed into the box (arlington sells one for flat screen t.v.) could this ever be considered in the tub space ,unless located in the tub itself.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
IMO that is the intent of the present NEC language.

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Where is the 'tub space' here?

Or more directly, where may I install receptacles?



Clawfoot%20tub%20(Small).JPG

LMAO.....Bob I am clueless.....dunno and great point!
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
LMAO.....Bob I am clueless.....dunno and great point!
OK. Let's revisit the exact language. I'll include the Handbook explanatory text.
2008 NEC
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

(from the Handbook) Section 406.8(C) prohibits the installation of receptacles inside bathtub and shower spaces or above their footprint, even if the receptacles are installed in a weatherproof enclosure. Prohibiting such installation helps minimize the use of shavers, radios, hair dryers, and so on, in these areas.
The unprotected-line side of GFCI-protected receptacles installed in bathtub and shower spaces could possibly become wet and therefore create a shock hazard by energizing surrounding wet surfaces.
There is no mention of under or beside.

Under or beside are not included in "within a bathtub or shower stall" nor "directly over a bathtub or shower stall".

The choice of the word "footprint" in the explanatory text is unfortunate, as many associate it with the bottoms of their feet, or, the floor. . . I submit that it is the widest cross section extending from above the tub or shower stall.

I'm going to drop "shower stall" for the moment 'cause the really difficult part of this is dealing with tubs, and especially the absolutely perfect image that Bob has just introduced. That is:

Clawfoot%20tub%20(Small).JPG


If I mount a floor receptacle UNDER the claw foot tub, the receptacle is neither "within or directly over" . . . it's that simple. The "space" is the space "within or directly over" the tub, but not beside, or near, or under, or directly under the tub.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
With the wording of the NEC the only place that would directly violate code would be on the ceiling above the tub. In a wall above a tub is not over the tub. This is not opinion but using Charlie's rule.

Now try and get that past an inspector. I always tell the HO I cannot put one over a tub for a TV but I have no legitimate reason for that. In the picture I posted earlier, if the outlet were over the vanity it would be legal and still accessible from the tub.

The NEC does not state it cannot be accessible from the tub. If that's what they wanted then they should have worded it that way-- something like no outlet within 5 foot of a tub.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
OK. Let's revisit the exact language. I'll include the Handbook explanatory text. There is no mention of under or beside.

Under or beside are not included in "within a bathtub or shower stall" nor "directly over a bathtub or shower stall".

The choice of the word "footprint" in the explanatory text is unfortunate, as many associate it with the bottoms of their feet, or, the floor. . . I submit that it is the widest cross section extending from above the tub or shower stall.

I'm going to drop "shower stall" for the moment 'cause the really difficult part of this is dealing with tubs, and especially the absolutely perfect image that Bob has just introduced. That is:

Clawfoot%20tub%20(Small).JPG


If I mount a floor receptacle UNDER the claw foot tub, the receptacle is neither "within or directly over" . . . it's that simple. The "space" is the space "within or directly over" the tub, but not beside, or near, or under, or directly under the tub.

Perfect install away.....
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I agree until I start wiring small apartment bathrooms again. 5' would place the receptacle outside the bathroom.:grin:
To me, the point is that keeping receptacles X feet away from the tub or shower stall is NOT in the language for a reason.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
You know guys in the many IAEI meetings I have attended across the country, this seemed one of the most common questions that came up on the questioners that they have the CMP's answer, and in every case Al's reply was exactly the same response they gave.

The bad thing is, if a two wire appliance was to fall into the water, and lets say we had a regular non-metal tub, plastic plumbing, no bonding to drain, fixtures or other, this two wire appliance could create a difference of potential in the water, and no GFCI in the world would ever trip to save the person in the same tub.

Why because the GFCI would only see a load between the hot and neutral of this appliance.

So yes I agree, the NEC does have some short comings, but we also have to hope, we as Human beings should have some common sense also. or should we all be reduced to living in a padded cell for the rest of our life?
 
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al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
. . . if a two wire appliance was to fall into the water, and lets say we had a regular non-metal tub, plastic plumbing, no bonding to drain, fixtures or other, this two wire appliance could create a difference of potential in the water, and no GFCI in the world would ever trip to save the person in the same tub.
Its not the potential, its the current. . . and, as you set up your hypothetical, there is no current path from the two-wire across the water, so, where is the other side of the "difference of potential"?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
IMO that is the intent of the present NEC language.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where is the 'tub space' here?

Or more directly, where may I install receptacles?



Clawfoot%20tub%20(Small).JPG

Thanks Bob my mind was wondering about same type tub.
This is not about what most think is safe , it's about what NEC says. In a court of law anything that is not clear is simply thrown out and defendant wins. Most here do not like #1 but that does not matter. We are stuck with NEC, maybe we need to go after them for failure to write things to say what they mean. We are being ripped off. We pay for a book of laws and get garbage. Someone gets a big pay check for all this and we foot the bill. Maybe OBAMBA will get involved.
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
This is my first opportunity to respond since my first post. If you reference the 2005 NEC Analysis of Changes which is when the current wording was adopted the Analysis and Effect section states "The areas involving bathtubs and showers have proven hazardous to people where electrical appliances are used in or near them. Receptacles are presently prohibited from being installed in those areas in an effort to keep people from using a cord and plug connected appliance, because if the receptacle is there it is likely to be used." and from the NEC 2008 Handbook commentary "Section 406.8(C) prohibits the installation of receptacles inside bathtub or shower spaces or above their footprint,". Even though these sections are not code they can be used for guidance. From these two sections I deduce the intent in part is to prevent appliances being used in these spaces and from the second qoute that the space for bathtub and shower can extend beyond the footprint of these devices. As such since the only way to use the receptacle in the first picture is from within the tub I consider it as part of that space. Otherwise a receptacle as little as 1" beyond the footprint of a tub and only accessable from the tub with the home owner telling you it is for the blow dryer would be code compliant and I have a problem with that.
 
I have the answer to all of these questions, and it is relatively simple.


Eliminate tubs from installation, ban them. ;)



These kind of questions are stimulating for the mind, they help to take the rounded edges off and sharpen them again.

One of the issues I see with this kind of situation, and the code language, is the AHJ. The individual who comes across an installation such as this, should contact the AHJ and ask his view/judgement on the topic. This way, if there is a difference in the thought pattern between the individual and the inspector, hopefully it can be decided before the installation and not afterwards.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
:smile:

I can't tell. . . is the "irony" switch ( [irony] statement [/irony] ) ON?

Al I am very sorry about that I sent my incomplete response to you I had a phone call at the same time and had to run. I agreed with your post and should have said.....Al agree that is perfect and install away. I did not even think about a floor receptacle outlet.:smile:
 
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