Tub space and receptacles

[raider1]

Great Thread Chris......:smile: This is a tough section to interpret.

It is a very tough section to interpret, that is why I though about starting this thread.

Chris

 

[iwire]

I agree, it is not as clear as it could be.:smile:

 

[raider1]

It's possible that, despite the #12, the box in pic 2 is for a switch, not a receptacle. If I'm correct, what are the opinions?

Larry, this was indeed a receptacle and not a switch. But if it had been a switch then I believe that since this is not a tub shower combo that the location would not be a wet location and therefore the switch would be OK.

404.4 prohibits switches from being installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.

Chris

 

[raider1]

I agree, it is not as clear as it could be.:smile:

Yes, but I feel confident with how I called this item on the inspection report.

Chris

 

[iwire]

Yes, but I feel confident with how I called this item on the inspection report.

I do see it your way but I can certainly understand Greg's view.:smile:

I do not agree with Rick's position.

I have always taken the position that if the receptacle is accessed from the bathtub then it is in the bathtub space.

Certainly a receptacle in a code legal position beside the tub could be accessed from in the tub.

 

[raider1]

I do see it your way but I can certainly understand Greg's view.:smile:

I do not agree with Rick's position.




Certainly a receptacle in a code legal position beside the tub could be accessed from in the tub.

I can understand Greg's view as well. That is why I started this thread, I wanted to get other peoples views and ideas on this.

Rick's view does seem to step over the bounds of the NEC and into the relm of personal opinion.

Chris

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Correct, this is a hydromassage bathtub not an indoor hot tub.

Chris

Then the receptacle is allowed #1. Just no way i could call that shelf in the tub area. If it is then so is the toilet and sink. This section needs updated before we kill someone. I do not understand logic in this code. If it is a spa or hot tub we would not allow the receptacle but hydro tub its safe ? Water not the same ?

 

[iwire]

I do not understand logic in this code. If it is a spa or hot tub we would not allow the receptacle but hydro tub its safe ? Water not the same ?

'We' write the code one section at a time which leads to many inconsistencies.

As an example the bathroom receptacle in a mobile home must be 3' from the tub but in a stick built home it can be right beside it.

 

[raider1]

Then the receptacle is allowed #1. Just no way i could call that shelf in the tub area. If it is then so is the toilet and sink. This section needs updated before we kill someone. I do not understand logic in this code. If it is a spa or hot tub we would not allow the receptacle but hydro tub its safe ? Water not the same ?

The biggest difference that I can see between a hydromassage bathtub and a spa or hot tub is that a hydromassage bathtub is designed to be drained after each use whereas a spa or hot tub stays filled for an extended time.

Chris

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The biggest difference that I can see between a hydromassage bathtub and a spa or hot tub is that a hydromassage bathtub is designed to be drained after each use whereas a spa or hot tub stays filled for an extended time.

Chris

Not sure about others but i drain my hot tub every sunday morning. But then i entertain 60 to 80 people every saturday night.Seems faster and cheaper than trying clean up water with spilled beer in it. I don't have anything electrical within reach as i know people get stupid when drinking. I see a bathtub with or without jets to be just as risky. I have refused to put receptacles in places like pict #1. If they don't like that then hire someone else. The danger is the same, but as Bob said the sections are wrote 1 at a time.

 

[C3PO]

I have no idea and did not say I had one. What is yours? Look at 406.8(C) Bath Tub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bath tub or shower stall......The point is this is open for interpretation. Two key words here "space and stall" See the problem?

I have always taken 406.8(C) to mean that the rec can not be installed above the foot print of the tub, the rec in his first pic is not above the footprint of the tub it is set back. The handbook commentary also supports this. I am not saying that I like it, but that it is code complaint IMHO

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have no idea and did not say I had one. What is yours? Look at 406.8(C) Bath Tub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bath tub or shower stall......The point is this is open for interpretation. Two key words here "space and stall" See the problem?

OK lets try it this way, just where do you think the tub space starts and ends ? Typical tub is 5' 0 " long ,about 32 inches wide and about 20 inches high. You tell us how many inches are tub area horizontally from edges of tub.
Could a vanity be in the tub area ?

 

[eds]

in picture #2 why would it be any differant to install a 2x4 nailer, you move the receptacle off the edge of the tub by 1x1/2. If the tub has a tile surround that lays right up to the lip of the tub, is this now in the tub space. I personally would add the 2x4 or lay the recep horizontal in the back splash, but the fact is that recep could really only be 2 to 3'' from the tub.

 

[raider1]

in picture #2 why would it be any differant to install a 2x4 nailer, you move the receptacle off the edge of the tub by 1x1/2.

If the edge of the receptacle is not over the edge of the tub then it would not be in the tub area.

If the tub has a tile surround that lays right up to the lip of the tub, is this now in the tub space.

Are you saying that a tub surround defines a tub space?

I personally would add the 2x4 or lay the recep horizontal in the back splash, but the fact is that recep could really only be 2 to 3'' from the tub.

Correct, there is no NEC code section that prohibits a receptacle from being installed right next to a tub space in a standard stick framed home.

Chris

 

[dcspector]

but that it is code complaint IMHO

Key word here IMHO. read the entire thread. It is all about IMHO

 

[dcspector]

OK lets try it this way, just where do you think the tub space starts and ends ? Typical tub is 5' 0 " long ,about 32 inches wide and about 20 inches high. You tell us how many inches are tub area horizontally from edges of tub.
Could a vanity be in the tub area ?

Jim read the entire thread it is all about everyones IMHO. No one knows the answer to this section Number it has been proven with this thread.

 

[iMuse97]

OK lets try it this way, just where do you think the tub space starts and ends ? Typical tub is 5' 0 " long ,about 32 inches wide and about 20 inches high. You tell us how many inches are tub area horizontally from edges of tub.
Could a vanity be in the tub area ?

Took me a while to get through all this to see where everyone's going--so far I don't know if anyone's going anywhere:roll: We had a challenge to an install, where the switches for the bathroom vanity, exhaust fan, recessed lighting, etc. were able to be reached from the tub while standing in it. The inspector (who had never failed a the exact same install before) dinged it. We got the definition, from some Illinois authority, saying that tub space is any space directly above the tub and its complete rim and/or bench, up to 8' above.

The switches stayed. FWIW, my reading of the code says that #1 is not in tub space, while #2 is a couple inches within the tub space. I don't like either one, and I've actually installed recepts. for tvs in 4 1/2 in alcoves similar to the one pictured, for flatscreens. IMO that alcove in #1 is big enough they could fit a TV, coffee maker, drink mixer, and more in it.

 

[iMuse97]

Jim read the entire thread it is all about everyones IMHO. No one knows the answer to this section Number it has been proven with this thread.

Yes, everyone gives their opinion b/c the code is not as precise as a lawyer would make it. The handbook gives additional guidance (as we also know, not necessarily enforceable text) as to what is meant by this, but still leaves #1 as outside the tub space. I don't like #1, either, but as I said in previous post, I've installed such myself. The boss said that's where it goes, and the GC is building a 1M+ home. That's what they want, then that's what they get.

 

[dcspector]

Took me a while to get through all this to see where everyone's going--so far I don't know if anyone's going anywhere:roll: We had a challenge to an install, where the switches for the bathroom vanity, exhaust fan, recessed lighting, etc. were able to be reached from the tub while standing in it. The inspector (who had never failed a the exact same install before) dinged it. We got the definition, from some Illinois authority, saying that tub space is any space directly above the tub and its complete rim and/or bench, up to 8' above.

The switches stayed. FWIW, my reading of the code says that #1 is not in tub space, while #2 is a couple inches within the tub space. I don't like either one, and I've actually installed recepts. for tvs in 4 1/2 in alcoves similar to the one pictured, for flatscreens. IMO that alcove in #1 is big enough they could fit a TV, coffee maker, drink mixer, and more in it.

That definition sounds like it came from 410.10(D)....which has nothing to do with this thread regarding receptacle outlets in a tub space or shower stall. That would be great if the CMP would incorporate that into 406.8(C)

 

[iwire]

We got the definition, from some Illinois authority, saying that tub space is any space directly above the tub and its complete rim and/or bench, up to 8' above.

IMO that is the intent of the present NEC language.

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Where is the 'tub space' here?

Or more directly, where may I install receptacles?