Article 200.2

[tomborchelt]

We are working in the city of Hayward, CA and the electrical inspector is requiring us to install a neutral conductor in every electrical system and he is referencing Article 200.2. I need help in a clarification on this. Even if the system is a 3 phase 3 wire system, he is insistant on us pulling in a neutral. We always pull in an equipment ground conductor as part of the wire pull. Can someone please give me some clarification on this ruling.

 

[raider1]

Is the inspector require a neutral in every circuit or every system?

200.2 requires every premise wiring system (Other than the systems mention in the section)to have a grounded conductor, but this conductor does not need to be brought with every circuit unless the circuit needs the grounded conductor to function.

Chris

 

[infinity]

Sounds to me like he's reading it incorrectly. The wording states that it needs to be identified according to the referenced sections. Why should a 3 phase, 3 wire system need a neutral?

200.2 General.
All premises wiring systems, other than circuits and systems exempted or prohibited by 210.10, 215.7, 250.21, 250.22, 250.162, 503.155, 517.63, 668.11, 668.21, and 690.41, Exception, shall have a grounded conductor that is identified in accordance with 200.6. The grounded conductor shall comply with 200.2(A) and (B).

 

[chris kennedy]

Steer the inspector toward 300.3(B).

300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit.

All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

 

[crossman gary]

In Article 100, "Premises Wiring (System)" is referring to the entire electrical installation in the structure. It is the the whole thing taken together. It is not an individual circuit or feeder.

So when the code says

"premises wiring systems.... shall have a grounded conductor..."

as in 200.2 General,

it isn't saying that every circuit and feeder must have a grounded conductor, it is saying the overall installation/system must have a grounded conductor. And of course, that grounded conductors exists at the service, and that satisfies the requirement.

Edit: It is ridiculous that an inspector thinks you must pull a neutral to a piece of equipment (other than service equipment) that does not need it. And, the installation of only the phase conductors to an MCC or other similar equipment is done all the time.

 

[erickench]

I would tell the inspector that the grounded conductor does not have to be a neutral. It sounds like you have a delta system. Try using a corner grounded delta. This should satisfy the requirement.:smile:

 

[erickench]

You can also try using a center tap of one of the phase windings of the delta transformer as a grounded conductor.

 

[crossman gary]

We are working in the city of Hayward, CA and the electrical inspector is requiring us to install a neutral conductor in every electrical system and he is referencing Article 200.2. I need help in a clarification on this. Even if the system is a 3 phase 3 wire system, he is insistant on us pulling in a neutral. We always pull in an equipment ground conductor as part of the wire pull. Can someone please give me some clarification on this ruling.

Need clarification from OP.

Some of us are going in different directions. Are you talking about different services at different premises, are or you talking about feeders and branch circuits from the same service?

If we are talking about services at different premises, then look at 250.24(C). If the POCO xfmr is grounded, then that grounded conductor must be brought to the service.

If we are talking about one premise/service and the inspector is making yu pull neutrals in feeders and to equipment that doesn't need it, then my previous post applies.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

200.2 General.
All premises wiring systems, other than circuits and systems exempted or prohibited by ...


250.24(C) Grounded Conductor Brought to Service Equipment.

(The purpose of this section, requiring the grounded conductor installed with services, it to provide a means for ground fault current to find it's way back to the transformer [source])

The inspector sounds confused. I would try to provide him with the sections brought up by this thread, and then discuss with him the principle/theory behind the section numbers. This may help him to understand, and in the same process, make him a better inspector.


Note:
There is a large percentage of individuals in our industry who do not understand the principle of where and when the grounded conductor is used as part of the effective ground fault current path.

 

[Mike R Johnson]

We are working in the city of Hayward, CA and the electrical inspector is requiring us to install a neutral conductor in every electrical system and he is referencing Article 200.2. I need help in a clarification on this. Even if the system is a 3 phase 3 wire system, he is insistant on us pulling in a neutral. We always pull in an equipment ground conductor as part of the wire pull. Can someone please give me some clarification on this ruling.

Tom,
I am having the same argument with Bob. Here is the email he sent me today.

Have you had any luck yet?

Look at Sec. 200.2 and 200.3

Neutral has to be taken to motor disconnect and terminated on the neutral bar. The ECG will terminate on the accessory grounding bar. The green bonding screw can only be used when the equipment is used as service equipment.

The disconnecting means have provisions to terminate the grounded and grounding conductors when the accessory grounding bar is purchased and installed. The grounded conductors is terminated at the disconnecting means and stops at that point when the equipment being supplied does not require a grounded conductor. If the grounded conductor is not required for the feeder or branch circuit, the grounded conductors taken to the disconnecting means is not required to be larger than the equipment grounding conductor. In the case or a step down transformer, the adjacent panelboard where the primary conductors originate should have a grounded conductor and the panelboard would serve as the disconnecting means..

 

[Doug S.]

Look at Sec. 200.2 and 200.3

Neutral has to be taken to motor disconnect and terminated on the neutral bar. The ECG will terminate on the accessory grounding bar. The green bonding screw can only be used when the equipment is used as service equipment.

I looked at those articles... ... ... following that thinking the grounded conductor should also extend to the pecker-head. Who does he think he is allowing you to stop at the disco! :grin:
This might save you a few bucks on neutral kits.

WOW

 

[Smart $]

Tom,
I am having the same argument with Bob. Here is the email he sent me today.

Have you had any luck yet?

Look at Sec. 200.2 and 200.3

Neutral has to be taken to motor disconnect and terminated on the neutral bar. The ECG will terminate on the accessory grounding bar. The green bonding screw can only be used when the equipment is used as service equipment.

The disconnecting means have provisions to terminate the grounded and grounding conductors when the accessory grounding bar is purchased and installed. The grounded conductors is terminated at the disconnecting means and stops at that point when the equipment being supplied does not require a grounded conductor. If the grounded conductor is not required for the feeder or branch circuit, the grounded conductors taken to the disconnecting means is not required to be larger than the equipment grounding conductor. In the case or a step down transformer, the adjacent panelboard where the primary conductors originate should have a grounded conductor and the panelboard would serve as the disconnecting means..

For the purpose of your post, 210.10 and/or 215.7 should suffice...

210.10 Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from
Grounded Systems. Two-wire dc circuits and ac circuits of
two or more ungrounded conductors shall be permitted to
be tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits that
have a grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in
each tapped circuit shall have a pole in each ungrounded
conductor. All poles of multipole switching devices shall
manually switch together where such switching devices
also serve as a disconnecting means as required by the
following:
(1) 410.93 for double-pole switched lampholders
(2) 410.104(B) for electric-discharge lamp auxiliary equipment
switching devices
(3) 422.31(B) for an appliance
(4) 424.20 for a fixed electric space-heating unit
(5) 426.51 for electric deicing and snow-melting equipment
(6) 430.85 for a motor controller
(7) 430.103 for a motor


215.7 Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from Grounded
Systems. Two-wire dc circuits and ac circuits of two or
more ungrounded conductors shall be permitted to be
tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits having a
grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in each
tapped circuit shall have a pole in each ungrounded conductor.

While not explicitly stated, the mentioned tapping [note only circuits are mentioned and does not distinguish as to the type, feeder or branch] is commonly and most effectively accomplished by the use of equipment such as panelboards, motor control centers, and similar, as opposed to using wiring-method tapping rules under overcurrent protection requirements.

Many of the types of equipment mentioned above, including disconnects, are manufactured for maximum adaptablity. Just because it has a terminal for an ungrounded conductor does not mean an ungrounded conductor must be connected. This is no different than using 1-pole only of a 2-pole switch. Additionally, just because some have pre-punched and pre-drilled holes for an optional grounding bar kit does not mean one has to be installed.

 

[Mike R Johnson]

I sent the inspector an Email with many of the reponces i found here. See what his responce is.

If i am required to do what he is asking for its going to cost some money.


Inspector Wrote:

200.2 refers to systems (plural)


90.4 ?. . . The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, . . . ?.


All premises wiring systems shall have a grounded (neutral) conductor that is identified in accordance with 200.6.

 

[Smart $]

I sent the inspector an Email with many of the reponces i found here. See what his responce is.

If i am required to do what he is asking for its going to cost some money.


Inspector Wrote:

200.2 refers to systems (plural)


90.4 “. . . The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, . . . “.


All premises wiring systems shall have a grounded (neutral) conductor that is identified in accordance with 200.6.

Granted the onus of interpretation is on the AHJ, so by his very own admission he can be wrong if he does not do so responsibly. :grin:

On that note, I have to bring up the fact he left out a significant portion of that requirement...

200.2 General. All premises wiring systems, other than circuits and systems exempted or prohibited by 210.10, 215.7, 250.21, 250.22, 250.162, 503.155, 517.63, 668.11, 668.21, and 690.41, Exception, shall have a grounded conductor that is identified in accordance with 200.6. ...

However, the problem is typical branch circuits and feeders (as under discussion) are not among those exempted or prohibited. He seems to be very savvy in his interpretation... I will give him that... but it appears he does not possess a great or accomplished degree of practical knowledge. As part of grounded premises wirning systems, circuits and feeders with no grounded conductor have been around forever.

A proposal for Article 200.2 is currently in the comment stage. Perhaps we can squeeze in an alteration of the wording so this doesn't happen. Anyone care to help word the comment? Below is a copy of the proposal...

5-31 Log #315 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(200.2)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert J. Walsh, City of Hayward
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
All premises wiring systems, other than circuits and systems exempted or
prohibited by 210.10, 215.7, 250.21, 250.22, 250.162, 430.21, 430.25, 503.155,
517.63, 668.11, 668.21, and 690.41 Exception, shall have a grounded conductor
that is identified in accordance with 200.6. The grounded conductor shall
comply with 200.2(A) and (B).
Substantiation: Many loads do not require a neutral conductor such as electric
Motors.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise the existing text of the 2008 NEC to read:
“All premises wiring systems, other than circuits and systems specifically
exempted or prohibited by other sections of this Code 210.10, 215.7, 250.21,
250.22, 250.162, 503.155, 517.63, 668.11, 668.21, and 690.41, Exception, shall
have a grounded conductor that is identified in accordance with 200.6. The
grounded conductor shall comply with 200.2(A) and (B).”
This action does not affect the existing text of 200.2(A) and 200.2(B).
Panel Statement: CMP-5 recognizes there are other sections than those
included in the list or suggested text that are not required to have a grounded
conductor.
Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13 Negative: 3
Explanation of Negative:
DOBROWSKY, P.: This section should be deleted in its entirety. Modifying
the language is not incorrect but it is now essentially useless and provides no
guidance to the user. If a grounded conductor is required specific sections
already address that, stating that one is always required- unless specifically
exempted “somewhere” adds no value.
HARDING, G.: The panel action appears to only remove the list from this
requirement and does not address the actual concerns of the submitter. The
panel action should have included a new sentence to read as follows:
“For premises wiring systems, a grounded conductor shall not be required to
be installed with the ungrounded conductors of a feeder or branch circuit where
it is unnecessary based on the load served.”
WILLIAMS, D.: This proposal should be a straight accept. The present
section wording provides a number of sections where a grounded conductor is
not required to be routed with branch circuits or feeder applications. The
submitter has included two additional sections where a grounded conductor
should not be required for a motor branch circuits and feeders. Since it was not
referenced in this section a grounded conductor is required. The panels actions
of removing the listed sections will now require a grounded conductor routed
to all of the previously referenced sections unless specifically exempted in the
code.
Comment on Affirmative:
JOHNSTON, M.: Continue to accept the revisions as proposed as a proactive
approach in NEC development. The revision removes the list and results in a
reference that is more likely to remain accurate in subsequent NEC cycles. The
concerns of the submitter should be addressed by including clear text that
relaxes the requirement for a grounded conductor to be installed with all
circuits where it is unnecessary because of the type of load the circuit serves. A
three-phase load should not always be required to include a grounded (neutral)
conductor.
_______________________________________________________________

 

[Mike R Johnson]

Submitter: Robert J. Walsh, City of Hayward


Thats funny! this is the inspector i am dealing with.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I wonder if he even understands what his proposal and the response even means. He seems somewhat lost in his concept recognition of the topic.

 

[Mike R Johnson]

A proposal for Article 200.2 is currently in the comment stage. Perhaps we can squeeze in an alteration of the wording so this doesn't happen. Anyone care to help word the comment? Below is a copy of the proposal...[/QUOTE]


Any idea of the date this proposal was submitted?

 

[Smart $]

Any idea of the date this proposal was submitted?

Sorry, but no idea.

 

[Smart $]

Sorry, but no idea.

I shouldn't have said no idea...:roll:

Proposal closing date was 11/7/2008....

so it was on that date or before

 

[Mike R Johnson]

Latest and greatest.
Looks like i am running a grounded conductor to have it do nothing.




Mr. Johnson,



In your last email, you wrote in part:

A) Do you require existing HVAC have the neutral added to them if we did not work on them?

No, just the equipment that your mechanics installed with new feeders.

Note: A grounded conductor will not be required for the transformer primary conductors originating at the remote electrical service equipment.



The new or relocated equipment disconnecting means have listed provisions to terminate the grounded and grounding conductors. Most disconnect manufacturers provide a neutral bar and a green bonding screw, but not the equipment grounding conductor bar. The bonding screw shall be installed to bond the neutral bar to the disconnect enclosure only when used as service equipment.

For circuits installed on the load side of the service equipment main disconnecting means, the utilization equipment disconnects may require a listed equipment grounding bar to be installed if an equipment grounding conductor(s) is present.

A grounded conductors shall be run with the circuit conductors to the disconnecting means. The grounded conductors shall be terminated at the disconnecting means neural bar and stops at that point if the equipment being supplied does not require the grounded conductor. If the grounded conductor is not required for the utilization equipment, the grounded conductors run with the circuit conductors to the disconnecting means shall not be required to be larger than an equipment grounding conductor sized per Table 250.122. In the case of a step down transformer, the adjacent panelboard where the primary conductors originate should have a grounded conductor and the panelboard would serve as the disconnecting means. (However, the grounded conductor will not be required for the transformer primary conductors originating at the remote electrical service equipment.)