A/C Compressor Electrical connections

Status
Not open for further replies.

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Takes a long while for them to rust :) If you want to totally avoid, there are some all plastic loadcenters (I think GE has one).
In this area the conductors to the unit would normally be THWN in metallic or non-metallic liquidtite flex.
NM is a definite violation. UF is questionable.
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
I would be less concerned about the disconnect (assuming it still worked and was rated for the circuit - i.e. 30A on #8). I am more concerned about what looks like UF coming out of that disconnect to the AC compressor. What gage is it? 12/2? 10/2?

Most HVAC equipment is connected with conductors running inType B or LFMC within 6' of the disconnect.
 

e57

Senior Member
They willing to pay?
  1. Relocate it if there is OCP in it.
  2. Re-paint it if it's rusty - if it is disinigrating - replace it.
  3. Re-feed it if undersized. (Join the debate on that... i.e. 240.4(D) +/or (G))
  4. Liq-tite the section between the disco, and unit. If UF AND UV resistant it will still croak out some day... If not UV resistant it will just be sooner... If you can't tell... Replace it...
 

e57

Senior Member
~ (~ rated for the circuit - i.e. 30A on #8). ~

There has been some recent debate on this... Care to elaborate on your thinking????

Some would say 30A on #10 is suitable for the application. (I'm not one of them in this case without more info on the load.)
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
There has been some recent debate on this... Care to elaborate on your thinking????

Some would say 30A on #10 is suitable for the application. (I'm not one of them in this case without more info on the load.)

My consideration would primarily be based on how long the run was from the main panel and the specified load. If the main panel was on the other side of that wall, I would think #10 conductors would be fine. However, at 50'+ away, I would prefer #8 to reduce the voltage drop when the compressor starts up - and resulting light flicker in the house. Of course, I am assuming its 30A.:)
 

e57

Senior Member
My consideration would primarily be based on how long the run was from the main panel and the specified load. If the main panel was on the other side of that wall, I would think #10 conductors would be fine. However, at 50'+ away, I would prefer #8 to reduce the voltage drop when the compressor starts up - and resulting light flicker in the house. Of course, I am assuming its 30A.:)
So you're basing that on a matter of choice??? And see the min. @ #10?
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
So you're basing that on a matter of choice??? And see the min. @ #10?


NEC wire size calculations allow minimum of #10 Cu THHW or THWN (75 & 90C) on a 30A max circuit (Annex B, table B.310.1 in NEC)

Also, there are a few online conductor sizing calculators that can take into account length of run when factoring a size.

Am I misguided?:confused:
 

e57

Senior Member
Am I misguided?:confused:
No.... I thought you were about to go in the direction of this thread. (lenthy)

#10 UF in the 60 column of T310.16 is 30, and temp correction is <30. Table B.310.1 (while I don't think it applies) would be even less.

After any correction factors for ambient temperature ~ have been applied - IMO #10 is too small for 30A OCP with #10 in this case. That is - I beleive 240.4(D) still applies - even though the conductors could be also sized by way of 240.4(G) and just the name-plate and terminal ratings. (With no correction on abient temp or other adjustment)
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
No.... I thought you were about to go in the direction of this thread. (lenthy)

#10 UF in the 60 column of T310.16 is 30, and temp correction is <30. Table B.310.1 (while I don't think it applies) would be even less.

After any correction factors for ambient temperature ~ have been applied - IMO #10 is too small for 30A OCP with #10 in this case. That is - I beleive 240.4(D) still applies - even though the conductors could be also sized by way of 240.4(G) and just the name-plate and terminal ratings. (With no correction on abient temp or other adjustment)

I didn't read that one yet!:)

I don't even think that this install should even have an exposed UF whip of any size. I have always used NM liquidtight (Type B) in any A/C condenser installation I have done myself, with #10 90C THHN conductors, or #8 THHN 90C for longer runs. The run back from the disconnect to the main panel would be larger than #10 if the run exceeded 15' - this is my arbitrary engineer decision that is designed to overkill any installation...:roll: I actually reduced the A/C startup flicker in my house lighting by changing out the 55' run of #8/3 NM with 55' of #6/3 NM.

The minimum is always the manufacturer's installation requirements (not just nameplate data), then take into account any local or national code issues - plus additional site requirements.

I do think that with moderate inductive loads like a compressor motor, a larger conductor is always better for the compressor and reduction of any objectionable flicker or voltage drop.
 

tonype

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I would be less concerned about the disconnect (assuming it still worked and was rated for the circuit - i.e. 30A on #8). I am more concerned about what looks like UF coming out of that disconnect to the AC compressor. What gage is it? 12/2? 10/2?

Most HVAC equipment is connected with conductors running inType B or LFMC within 6' of the disconnect.

Sorry for the delay - had to step out for awhile.

#10 gage - max. ocp for compressor is 20 (based on manufacturers nameplate).
 

tonype

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
My consideration would primarily be based on how long the run was from the main panel and the specified load. If the main panel was on the other side of that wall, I would think #10 conductors would be fine. However, at 50'+ away, I would prefer #8 to reduce the voltage drop when the compressor starts up - and resulting light flicker in the house. Of course, I am assuming its 30A.:)

My estimate is that the main panel is about 25 to 30 feet away
 

tonype

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
#10 gage - max. ocp for compressor is 20 (based on manufacturers nameplate).

Also, 30-amp fuses are at this local disconnect and a 30-amp breaker is is the main. I told the client to have these changed to 20 amps to match max. listed on the nameplate
 

e57

Senior Member
I don't even think that this install should even have an exposed UF whip of any size.

The minimum is always the manufacturer's installation requirements (not just nameplate data), then take into account any local or national code issues - plus additional site requirements.

I agree - the use of UF is hack work IMO - but code min. non-the-less...

The size however, I feel 240.4(D) still applies and regardless of load size - making either #12, or #10 UF too small after ambient temp corrections for 30A OCP. Making #8 UF the absolute bare min. (But I would do LFMC and at least 90C #10 THHN/THHW in it.)
 

e57

Senior Member
Also, 30-amp fuses are at this local disconnect and a 30-amp breaker is is the main. I told the client to have these changed to 20 amps to match max. listed on the nameplate
If changed to 20A OCP - the install is OK (Even with temp correction and 240.4(D) - if you believe it to be applicable or not.) - except for the workspace issue, and the unkown UV resistance.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Sorry for the delay - had to step out for awhile.

#10 gage - max. ocp for compressor is 20 (based on manufacturers nameplate).

With a max of 20 amps you more than likely could wire it with #14 conductors.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
However, at 50'+ away, I would prefer #8 to reduce the voltage drop when the compressor starts up - and resulting light flicker in the house.
Um, no. Voltage drop one one circuit won't add to flickering on the other circuits. Both loads have to share the same conductors for one's current to affect the other's voltage.
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
Um, no. Voltage drop one one circuit won't add to flickering on the other circuits. Both loads have to share the same conductors for one's current to affect the other's voltage.

The A/C compressor being 220V/1ph is pulling from both main legs when it starts up. Its circuit includes the disconnect, exterior connection whip conductors, and circuit conductors from the disconnect back to the main panel CB. Starting of that inductive load will affect the voltage of all loads on those main legs - including lights. Most loads don't notice the voltage drop, but lamps and humans are more sensitive.

One of the ways to handle the high inrush current of a starting motor is to make sure the supply conductors are sized a bit larger than the running motor needs. The condensers nameplate LRA is a good way of looking at what kinds of momentary inrush currents may be on the A/C circuit. By sizing up the supply conductors from the main panel to the condenser compressor, circuit resistance won't be made worse by the A/C supply conductors.

In my case, prior to swapping out the #8/3 NM, I had checked ALL connections for tightness, and even replaced the A/C disconnect assy., whip, and main panel CB with no improvement. As soon as I changed out the 55' run of #8/3 to #6/3, the light flicker became much less noticeable. However, it is still not completely eliminated, and probably never will be. What I did is to lower the inherent resistive impedance of just the conductors in the circuit.

Other ways include adding a hard start (Boost Capacitor) kit to the motor line side to help supply the motor with more inrush voltage upon starting. Here are a few good articles that explain it a bit more technically.

http://www.builderswebsource.com/_discBT/00000cf0.htm

http://ecmweb.com/lighting/electric_flicker_causes_symptoms/

Mike Holt even had a writeup in 1999 that also looked at other reasons for A/C causing lights to flicker.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/All-HTML/HTML/Lights-Flicker-(Dim)-When-AC-Starts~19991007.php

And another Mike Holt document talking about the effects of conductor sizing and voltage drop.

http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=technicalvoltagedrop1

It is important to know that the NEC's FPN points out the ampacities listed in Table 310-16 do not take voltage drop into consideration.

Am I making sense?:-?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Am I making sense?:-?
Well, yes and no. Here's how I see it:

Between the utility transformer and your panel bus, there is a resistance. Between the panel bus and the AC compressor there is a resistance, and between the panel bus and the lighting circuit there is a resistance.

When the AC starts up, there is a voltage drop ahead of the panel that the lighting circuit sees, and an additional voltage drop in its circuit after the panel that the lighting circuit does not see.

When the AC circuit has a relatively larger resistance, it has a larger voltage drop, which reduces the voltage, which raises the current (but not without limit) which increases its voltage drop even more.

There must be a point where the increase in current is overcome by the reduced voltage, and the current is unable to increase any more, and the voltage drop peaks at some point.



Are you suggesting that, despite the greater voltage drop, the smaller conductors allowed a greater current increase, enough to cause a greater voltage drop on the before-the-panel conductors?

And, that the larger AC conductors reduced the overall voltage drop so much that the current on the entire service was reduced, and not increased, by the lower circuit resistance, because it's a motor load?

If so, okay, I'll buy that. :) However, I would have loved to take bith voltage and current readings on both the main and the compressor terminals during start-up.



Added: I understand that upsizing helps with start-up voltage sag. What I question is whether that results in a gretaer or lesser current. Does the current increase faster than its own current-caused voltage drop drops?
 
Last edited:

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I think the "flicker" is more noticeable with the smaller conductors because the voltage dip lasts longer. The smaller wire limits the current and causes the motor to take longer to start resulting in a more noticeable flicker. When you increase the wire size, you increase the current flow and increase the voltage dip on the service conductors but the higher current flow is of a shorter duration.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top