#14 switch legs on 20A OCP

[C3PO]

We do not need anything in G telling us we can ignore D as D has already told us we can ignore D if the application is covered by G.

My thoughts exactly

 

[e57]

It seems your the only one that has an issue with this section, when that happens to me I try to re-think my position.

I did - and over, and over again I come to the same conclusion.

Please point to someplace in the codes listed in 240.4(G) that "specifically permits" 240.4(D) to be not applicable.... Or refute in some way that "A through G" means ONLY "G"....

Maybe - you and George and the countless others swing my way, and we'll be all good... I know you're all old dogs - but we can try - slowly... Just read the code fresh - not what you have locked in your mind all these years...

Anyway - so what do you think of 250.122? IMO that pretty much backs it up, as 20A would require a min of #12, and 30A would need a min of #10 for a EGC - pretty hard to do other than that with cable... Putting it in line with 240.4(D) - AGAIN....

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I did - and over, and over again I come to the same conclusion.

What we can do for you is to take a 3 pound hammer, with a nice soft rubber covering and just give you a very nice club to the forehead...I believe it will not only help, but will not leave much evidence behind.

 

[iwire]

Please point to someplace in the codes listed in 240.4(G) that "specifically permits" 240.4(D) to be not applicable.... Or refute in some way that "A through G" means ONLY "G"........

Again ...........

We do not need anything in G telling us we can ignore D as D has already told us we can ignore D if the application is covered by G.

 

[480sparky]

Here's my take:

240.4(D) says you get to choose:

Choice one is you use the small conductor rules in 240.4(D)(1) through (7) .

Choice two is you go shopping through 240.4(E) through (G).

240.4(E) are for taps. (F) is for Transformer Secondaries.

(G) is for specific conductor applications.

If you have taps, you go to (G). Trans. 2nds you're in (F). Anything listed in (G) directs you to specific Articles and Sections.

If my application doesn't fall under (E), (F) or (G), then I'm stuck with 240.4(D)(1) through (7).

 

[Volta]

. . .Please point to someplace in the codes listed in 240.4(G) that "specifically permits" 240.4(D) to be not applicable.... Or refute in some way that "A through G" means ONLY "G"....

It does say (E) or (G), and 240.4(E)(2) specifically permits fixture wire to be installed in accordance with 240.5(B)(2).

240.5(B)(2)(2) allows fixture wire of 14 AWG to be tapped to a 20-ampere circuit.

Anyway - so what do you think of 250.122? IMO that pretty much backs it up, as 20A would require a min of #12, and 30A would need a min of #10 for a EGC - pretty hard to do other than that with cable... Putting it in line with 240.4(D) - AGAIN....

250.122 says (2008) that "in no case shall they (EGC's) be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying the equipment.

#14 to lighting on a 20 a circuit can be compliant.

 

[iwire]

Anyway - so what do you think of 250.122? IMO that pretty much backs it up, as 20A would require a min of #12, and 30A would need a min of #10 for a EGC - pretty hard to do other than that with cable... Putting it in line with 240.4(D) - AGAIN....

The EGC does not have to be larger than the circuit conductors, sorry can't remember which section says that.

 

[480sparky]

the egc does not have to be larger than the circuit conductors, sorry can't remember which section says that.

250.122(a).

Man, I really wish the forum software would quit changing upper-case letters to lower case.

 

[iwire]

Man, I really wish the forum software would quit changing upper-case letters to lower case.

I agree, sometimes it is a pain.

 

[iMuse97]

I did - and over, and over again I come to the same conclusion.

Please point to someplace in the codes listed in 240.4(G) that "specifically permits" 240.4(D) to be not applicable.... Or refute in some way that "A through G" means ONLY "G"....

Anyway - so what do you think of 250.122? IMO that pretty much backs it up, as 20A would require a min of #12, and 30A would need a min of #10 for a EGC - pretty hard to do other than that with cable... Putting it in line with 240.4(D) - AGAIN....

You are thinking of cable, when the discussion is about the permitted wire size. Certainly the Equipment Grounding Conductor needs to be sized according to accepted practices (ie. T250.122), but 240.4(D) says "unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or 240.4(G), we must only use the OCPD's specified in 240.4(D) #1-7.

Given that, I answer your question: 240.4(D) says I may use the exceptions specifically permitted in 240.4(G). This (G) says, and I quote: "Overcurrent protection for Specific Conductor Applications. Overcurrent protection for the specific conductors shall be permitted (italics mine) to be provided as referenced in Table 240.4(G)."

This table, T240.4(G), refers to various inductive and capacitive and signal loads which all shall be permitted in reference to the italicized permission given above.

This in no way will ever allow a #14 AWG switch leg to be used on a circuit protected by a 20 ampere OCPD. But it will allow these various permitted overcurrent protection applications.

 

[480sparky]

I agree, sometimes it is a pain.

250.122(?). Maybe I can fake it out.

Darn. I can't do a B, D, F or G.

 

[iMuse97]

It does say (E) or (G), and 240.4(E)(2) specifically permits fixture wire to be installed in accordance with 240.5(B)(2).

240.5(B)(2)(2) allows fixture wire of 14 AWG to be tapped to a 20-ampere circuit.


250.122 says (2008) that "in no case shall they (EGC's) be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying the equipment.

#14 to lighting on a 20 a circuit can be compliant.

But not as a switch leg, normallly designed, configured, and installed. Your reference only applies to fixture wire, which by definition is that wire installed within a given fixture or its attachment whip, not the switched branch circuit wiring which feeds the box from which the fixture is fed.

 

[iMuse97]

What we can do for you is to take a 3 pound hammer, with a nice soft rubber covering and just give you a very nice club to the forehead...I believe it will not only help, but will not leave much evidence behind.

That's how dey do dat in NYC; I thought you were in the burbs? Dey got de French guy working for 'em now, too?

 

[hurk27]

The difference is a fixture whip is exposed and not allowed to be concealed behind the building finish, the #14 switch leg is, which would require a 15 amp OCPD max

notice all the wiring methods in 240.5 have this (exposed) requirement elsewhere in the code

 

[e57]

Here's my take:

240.4(D) says you get to choose:

~~~~
If my application doesn't fall under (E), (F) or (G), then I'm stuck with 240.4(D)(1) through (7).

Sure you can choose to find something in 240.4(E) or (G) to get out of (D) - but what in those codes listed in each (E) or (G) "Specifically Permits" the contradiction of allowing higher amperages on smaller conductors that would otherwise be limited. Without a "specific" perimission IMO you are stuck with 240.4(D) on small conductors #10 or smaller.

Can anyone point to any language in any of the codes listed in (E) or (G) that says '240.4(D) shall not apply'? That would be "specific"...

 

[iwire]

Sure you can choose to find something in 240.4(E) or (G) to get out of (D) - but what in those codes listed in each (E) or (G) "Specifically Permits" the contradiction of allowing higher amperages on smaller conductors that would otherwise be limited.

The fact that 'motors' are listed in (G) is specific permission to use (G) for motor apps.

Without a "specific" permission IMO you are stuck with 240.4(D) on small conductors #10 or smaller.

So the entire country has been doing it wrong for many years and only you see things clearly?


Let me ask you this. Do you think the intent to ignore D is there and just the wrong words used or do you think the CMP never intended D to be ignored for any application?

Can anyone point to any language in any of the codes listed in (E) or (G) that says '240.4(D) shall not apply'? That would be "specific"...

Again that language is not needed, we already have that permission.

 

[Volta]

But not as a switch leg, normallly designed, configured, and installed. Your reference only applies to fixture wire, which by definition is that wire installed within a given fixture or its attachment whip, not the switched branch circuit wiring which feeds the box from which the fixture is fed.

That's not true. The allowable ampacity of #14 fixture wire is 17 amps. As my first post stated, 402.10 allows fixture wire to be used "for connecting luminaires to the branch-circuit conductors supplying the luminaires." I could run 50 feet of #18 fixture wire if I wanted to (I don't want to, but I can). 240.5(B)(2)(1).

The difference is a fixture whip is exposed and not allowed to be concealed behind the building finish, the #14 switch leg is, which would require a 15 amp OCPD max

notice all the wiring methods in 240.5 have this (exposed) requirement elsewhere in the code

Show me.

Not talking about fixture whips anyway, only fixture wire. Nothing in Article 402 requires the method to be exposed.

 

[mivey]

That's not true. The allowable ampacity of #14 fixture wire is 17 amps. As my first post stated, 402.10 allows fixture wire to be used "for connecting luminaires to the branch-circuit conductors supplying the luminaires." I could run 50 feet of #18 fixture wire if I wanted to (I don't want to, but I can). 240.5(B)(2)(1).



Show me.

Not talking about fixture whips anyway, only fixture wire. Nothing in Article 402 requires the method to be exposed.

Fixture wire is not a wiring method. Where between the outlet and fixture do you propose concealing the wire beneath the building finish?

400.8 Uses Not Permitted. Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
(3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
(4) Where attached to building surfaces Exception to (4): Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.56(B)
(5) Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
(6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
(7) Where subject to physical damage


400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:
(1) Pendants
(2) Wiring of luminaires
(3) Connection of portable luminaires, portable and mobile signs, or appliances
(4) Elevator cables
(5) Wiring of cranes and hoists
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection
(9) Connection of moving parts
(10) Where specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code

 

[wwhitney]

Sure you can choose to find something in 240.4(E) or (G) to get out of (D) - but what in those codes listed in each (E) or (G) "Specifically Permits" the contradiction of allowing higher amperages on smaller conductors that would otherwise be limited. Without a "specific" perimission IMO you are stuck with 240.4(D) on small conductors #10 or smaller.

It seems that the disagreement is just about the word "specific". For most readers, a line item entry in Table 240.4(G) is sufficiently "specific" to satisfy 240.4(D)'s clause "Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or (G)". That is, we read the word "specifically" in 240.4(D) to mean a specified conductor application, not an actual sentence saying "foo is exempted from 240.4(D)".

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mivey]

It seems that the disagreement is just about the word "specific". For most readers, a line item entry in Table 240.4(G) is sufficiently "specific" to satisfy 240.4(D)'s clause "Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or (G)". That is, we read the word "specifically" in 240.4(D) to mean a specified conductor application, not an actual sentence saying "foo is exempted from 240.4(D)".

Cheers, Wayne

Everybody knows that foo is exempted...that goes without saying. :grin: