My thoughts exactly
#14 switch legs on 20A OCP
- Thread starter e57
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My thoughts exactly
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I did - and over, and over again I come to the same conclusion.It seems your the only one that has an issue with this section, when that happens to me I try to re-think my position.
Please point to someplace in the codes listed in 240.4(G) that "specifically permits" 240.4(D) to be not applicable.... Or refute in some way that "A through G" means ONLY "G"....
Maybe - you and George and the countless others swing my way, and we'll be all good...
I know you're all old dogs - but we can try - slowly... Just read the code fresh - not what you have locked in your mind all these years...Anyway - so what do you think of 250.122? IMO that pretty much backs it up, as 20A would require a min of #12, and 30A would need a min of #10 for a EGC - pretty hard to do other than that with cable... Putting it in line with 240.4(D) - AGAIN....
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Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
- Location
- Massachusetts
Here's my take:
240.4(D) says you get to choose:
Choice one is you use the small conductor rules in 240.4(D)(1) through (7) .
Choice two is you go shopping through 240.4(E) through (G).
240.4(E) are for taps. (F) is for Transformer Secondaries.
(G) is for specific conductor applications.
If you have taps, you go to (G). Trans. 2nds you're in (F). Anything listed in (G) directs you to specific Articles and Sections.
If my application doesn't fall under (E), (F) or (G), then I'm stuck with 240.4(D)(1) through (7).
240.4(D) says you get to choose:
Choice one is you use the small conductor rules in 240.4(D)(1) through (7) .
Choice two is you go shopping through 240.4(E) through (G).
240.4(E) are for taps. (F) is for Transformer Secondaries.
(G) is for specific conductor applications.
If you have taps, you go to (G). Trans. 2nds you're in (F). Anything listed in (G) directs you to specific Articles and Sections.
If my application doesn't fall under (E), (F) or (G), then I'm stuck with 240.4(D)(1) through (7).
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
It does say (E) or (G), and 240.4(E)(2) specifically permits fixture wire to be installed in accordance with 240.5(B)(2).
240.5(B)(2)(2) allows fixture wire of 14 AWG to be tapped to a 20-ampere circuit.
250.122 says (2008) that "in no case shall they (EGC's) be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying the equipment.
#14 to lighting on a 20 a circuit can be compliant.
- Location
- Massachusetts
the egc does not have to be larger than the circuit conductors, sorry can't remember which section says that.
250.122(a).
Man, I really wish the forum software would quit changing upper-case letters to lower case.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree, sometimes it is a pain.
iMuse97
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicagoland
You are thinking of cable, when the discussion is about the permitted wire size. Certainly the Equipment Grounding Conductor needs to be sized according to accepted practices (ie. T250.122), but 240.4(D) says "unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or 240.4(G), we must only use the OCPD's specified in 240.4(D) #1-7.
Given that, I answer your question: 240.4(D) says I may use the exceptions specifically permitted in 240.4(G). This (G) says, and I quote: "Overcurrent protection for Specific Conductor Applications. Overcurrent protection for the specific conductors shall be permitted (italics mine) to be provided as referenced in Table 240.4(G)."
This table, T240.4(G), refers to various inductive and capacitive and signal loads which all shall be permitted in reference to the italicized permission given above.
This in no way will ever allow a #14 AWG switch leg to be used on a circuit protected by a 20 ampere OCPD. But it will allow these various permitted overcurrent protection applications.
iMuse97
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicagoland
It does say (E) or (G), and 240.4(E)(2) specifically permits fixture wire to be installed in accordance with 240.5(B)(2).
240.5(B)(2)(2) allows fixture wire of 14 AWG to be tapped to a 20-ampere circuit.
250.122 says (2008) that "in no case shall they (EGC's) be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying the equipment.
#14 to lighting on a 20 a circuit can be compliant.
But not as a switch leg, normallly designed, configured, and installed. Your reference only applies to fixture wire, which by definition is that wire installed within a given fixture or its attachment whip, not the switched branch circuit wiring which feeds the box from which the fixture is fed.
iMuse97
Senior Member
- Location
- Chicagoland
What we can do for you is to take a 3 pound hammer, with a nice soft rubber covering and just give you a very nice club to the forehead...I believe it will not only help, but will not leave much evidence behind.
That's how dey do dat in NYC; I thought you were in the burbs? Dey got de French guy working for 'em now, too?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
The difference is a fixture whip is exposed and not allowed to be concealed behind the building finish, the #14 switch leg is, which would require a 15 amp OCPD max
notice all the wiring methods in 240.5 have this (exposed) requirement elsewhere in the code
notice all the wiring methods in 240.5 have this (exposed) requirement elsewhere in the code
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Sure you can choose to find something in 240.4(E) or (G) to get out of (D) - but what in those codes listed in each (E) or (G) "Specifically Permits" the contradiction of allowing higher amperages on smaller conductors that would otherwise be limited. Without a "specific" perimission IMO you are stuck with 240.4(D) on small conductors #10 or smaller.
Can anyone point to any language in any of the codes listed in (E) or (G) that says '240.4(D) shall not apply'? That would be "specific"...
- Location
- Massachusetts
The fact that 'motors' are listed in (G) is specific permission to use (G) for motor apps.
So the entire country has been doing it wrong for many years and only you see things clearly?
Let me ask you this. Do you think the intent to ignore D is there and just the wrong words used or do you think the CMP never intended D to be ignored for any application?
Again that language is not needed, we already have that permission.
Volta
Senior Member
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
That's not true. The allowable ampacity of #14 fixture wire is 17 amps. As my first post stated, 402.10 allows fixture wire to be used "for connecting luminaires to the branch-circuit conductors supplying the luminaires." I could run 50 feet of #18 fixture wire if I wanted to (I don't want to, but I can). 240.5(B)(2)(1).
Show me.The difference is a fixture whip is exposed and not allowed to be concealed behind the building finish, the #14 switch leg is, which would require a 15 amp OCPD max
notice all the wiring methods in 240.5 have this (exposed) requirement elsewhere in the code
Not talking about fixture whips anyway, only fixture wire. Nothing in Article 402 requires the method to be exposed.
mivey
Senior Member
Fixture wire is not a wiring method. Where between the outlet and fixture do you propose concealing the wire beneath the building finish?
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
It seems that the disagreement is just about the word "specific". For most readers, a line item entry in Table 240.4(G) is sufficiently "specific" to satisfy 240.4(D)'s clause "Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or (G)". That is, we read the word "specifically" in 240.4(D) to mean a specified conductor application, not an actual sentence saying "foo is exempted from 240.4(D)".
Cheers, Wayne
mivey
Senior Member
Everybody knows that foo is exempted...that goes without saying. :grin:
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