Lighting load, for the sake of a Load calculation

[aelectricalman]

So, the customer has all energy efficient compact florecent lighting in his home. We are installing a whole house generator. The inspector looks at the load calculation and says the customer has 91amps for a calculated load and the 20K generator will only power up to 83 amps. I think you need to find a way to get the total load under 83 amps or get a load shed ATS. I say, I think you need to take in consideration that the customer is using all energy efficent lighting and the (X3) multiplier on your general lighting just went out the window. He said, I think you are walking a fine line, and what if the customer reverts back to standard incandecents. I say, I think the odds of that customer going back to standard incandecent are pretty slim considering they just invest $300 on bulbs to make this happen and I think you should let us by. He said No. XXXXXXXXXXX So, I told the customer we would have to just put his 2 kitchen circuits on power masters to lock them out from being energized at the same time, to please this idiot and bring down the total load capacity. The inspector then states that I would be voilating 2 circuit kitchen appliance minimum. At this point I snapped under pressure and told him "Its an emrgency XXXXXXXXXXX Generator, are you on a mission from hell". He left the job and says hes not coming back until I am away from him. I should not have went off, but do I have any backbone whatsoever that I may fall back on. I can not see a reason why he would not let me get by with 1 countertop circuit during an emergency. I just cant find any reason for him to be this way. I did not get angry with him until after he barraded me with NO's.

 

[LarryFine]

I should not have went off, but do I have any backbone whatsoever that I may fall back on.

First of all, Chris, in my opinion, your behavior was ridiculous and inexcusible, no matter what he said. Wow. I can only imagine it was even worse than you admitted here.

Added: The rules are what they are. There are civil ways to work toward changing what you believe is wrong, but he's not wrong for enforcing them, even if it's inconvenient.

Second, it would be simple enough to, for example, use an aux. contact and/or a relay to disable the AC compressor and/or heat strips by interrupting the 24v control wire.

 

[iwire]

I say, I think you need to take in consideration that the customer is using all energy efficient lighting and the (X3) multiplier on your general lighting just went out the window.

The NEC requires the lighting calculation be made based on the max size lamp the fixture is listed for. The size lamps the customer is using has nothing to do with it.

 

[ceb58]

First of all, Chris, in my opinion, your behavior was ridiculous and inexcusible, no matter what he said. Wow. I can only imagine it was even worse than you admitted here.

Added: The rules are what they are. There are civil ways to work toward changing what you believe is wrong, but he's not wrong for enforcing them, even if it's inconvenient.

Second, it would be simple enough to, for example, use an aux. contact and/or a relay to disable the AC compressor and/or heat strips by interrupting the 24v control wire.

Or drop off the water heater. If they have two HVAC units then go with Larry's idea.

By the way you did not follow the rules in dealing with the inspector.
Rule# 1 Do not tic the inspector off.
Rule#2 Refer to rule #1
You may have to eat some crow on this one. Tell the inspector you were having a bad hair day or something. Find a reasonable load to drop to put you under and let him sign off on it.

 

[skeshesh]

The NEC requires the lighting calculation be made based on the max size lamp the fixture is listed for. The size lamps the customer is using has nothing to do with it.

What Bob said. I think the inspector is right.

As far as you conduct, I find that acting professional regardless of how frustrating a situation is a must. I personally chose to become an engineer because I enjoy dealing with challenging questions and frustration comes with the territory, but I'd say I've come to pretty much the same conclusion about electrical contractors.

 

[celtic]

The NEC requires the lighting calculation be made based on the max size lamp the fixture is listed for. The size lamps the customer is using has nothing to do with it.

That's what I was gonna say.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

So, the customer has all energy efficient compact florecent lighting in his home. We are installing a whole house generator. The inspector looks at the load calculation and says the customer has 91amps for a calculated load and the 20K generator will only power up to 83 amps. I think you need to find a way to get the total load under 83 amps or get a load shed ATS. I say, I think you need to take in consideration that the customer is using all energy efficent lighting and the (X3) multiplier on your general lighting just went out the window. He said, I think you are walking a fine line, and what if the customer reverts back to standard incandecents. I say, I think the odds of that customer going back to standard incandecent are pretty slim considering they just invest $300 on bulbs to make this happen and I think you should let us by. He said No. XXXXXXXXXXX So, I told the customer we would have to just put his 2 kitchen circuits on power masters to lock them out from being energized at the same time, to please this idiot and bring down the total load capacity. The inspector then states that I would be voilating 2 circuit kitchen appliance minimum. At this point I snapped under pressure and told him "Its an emrgency XXXXXXXXXXX Generator, are you on a mission from hell". He left the job and says hes not coming back until I am away from him. I should not have went off, but do I have any backbone whatsoever that I may fall back on. I can not see a reason why he would not let me get by with 1 countertop circuit during an emergency. I just cant find any reason for him to be this way. I did not get angry with him until after he barraded me with NO's.

I think with an attitude like that, he's gonna fail you every chance he gets. ESPECIALLY when I agree with him on this one. His first statement to you was the best one. He was giving you a chance to redo your load calc. and you acted like a jerk. I think you dug yourself a hole.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

You cannot just say "what are the odds of them converting back!!" I mean gosh, what if they sell the house and the new owner HATES flourescents. ARe you gonna drop by and inform them that their newly purchased generator will not run incandescents? I think you blew it.

 

[mivey]

The NEC requires the lighting calculation be made based on the max size lamp the fixture is listed for. The size lamps the customer is using has nothing to do with it.

The can or the can+trim?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

lighting load is 3 watts per sq ft of living area

 

[celtic]

The can or the can+trim?

The can.
220.14.(D)

lighting load is 3 watts per sq ft of living area

For a "general lighting" load 220.12
For a specific load, 220.14...specifically, 220.14(D)

220.14(D) states:

Luminaires.
An outlet supplying luminaire(s) shall be calculated based on the maximum volt-ampere rating of the equipment and lamps for which the luminaire(s) is rated.

Maximum rating and luminaire being the keyword/s.




The NECH ['05] offers this commentary of 220.12:

General lighting loads determined by 220.12 are in fact minimum lighting loads, and there are no exceptions to these requirements. Therefore, energy saving?type calculations are not permitted to be used to determine the minimum calculated lighting load if they produce loads less than the load calculated according to 220.12. On the other hand, energy saving?type calculations can be a useful tool to reduce the connected lighting load and actual power consumption.
Examples of unused or unfinished spaces for dwelling units are some attics, cellars, and crawl spaces.

The inspector is correct, IMHO.

 

[mivey]

The can.
220.14.(D).

Ooops. I have calculated them based on the installed trim. Why is the trim not considered part of the luminaire?

 

[mivey]

Ooops. I have calculated them based on the installed trim. Why is the trim not considered part of the luminaire?

From the definitions:

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a light source such as a lamp or lamps, together with the parts designed to position the light source and connect it to the power supply. It may also include parts to protect the light source or the ballast or to distribute the light. A lampholder itself is not a luminaire.

 

[celtic]

Ooops. I have calculated them based on the installed trim. Why is the trim not considered part of the luminaire?

It is, but that is not all that needs to be considered.
What needs to be considered is " based on the maximum volt-ampere rating of the equipment and lamps for which the luminaire(s) is rated."

Regardless of the trim, the maximum is the value to be used.

 

[mivey]

It is, but that is not all that needs to be considered.
What needs to be considered is " based on the maximum volt-ampere rating of the equipment and lamps for which the luminaire(s) is rated."

Regardless of the trim, the maximum is the value to be used.

If the trim counts, then the trim can reduce the maximum wattage allowed.

 

[kwired]

He said No. XXXXXXXXXXX

sounds like the inspector may have been out of line also, he need to respect you as you do him.

The inspector then states that I would be voilating 2 circuit kitchen appliance minimum.

this is on optional standby system where does it say what loads are to be required to be available (I don't think it does) The generator may need to be able to supply the connected load but there is no requirement for what is to be connected. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

[iMuse97]

exactly what I was going to say. Installed a smaller gennie and ran two sumps, a well pump, a freezer, a fridge, a furnace, and a few lighting circuits. No kitchen countertop circuits anywhere in the gennie transfer panel.

 

[mivey]

exactly what I was going to say. Installed a smaller gennie and ran two sumps, a well pump, a freezer, a fridge, a furnace, and a few lighting circuits. No kitchen countertop circuits anywhere in the gennie transfer panel.

Absolutely. What if you just wanted to run the freezer in the garage? Don't see how the inspector gets to say what is on the generator.

 

[celtic]

If the trim counts, then the trim can reduce the maximum wattage allowed.

I'm not buying it.

A CFL will not reduce the rating....why would a trim?

Why would one change the rating and the other not?

 

[~Shado~]

Absolutely. What if you just wanted to run the freezer in the garage? Don't see how the inspector gets to say what is on the generator.

Although I haven't had a lot of experience in this matter...but ...would the fact that the OP stated this was a whole house set up, be the reason for requiring it to accomodate everything?