200.7 Using white wire as ungrounded conductor

[electricmanscott]

If this was a bar someone would have been tossed out on his rear by now.

 

[daleuger]

Apparently some people are not familiar with the phrase...."down on white back on black" :-?

 

[LarryFine]

In the red above, did you mean to say EMF?

No, I meant "me". :roll:

 

[hurk27]

I didn't wire this particular setup. Personally I don't use this method but I also have no problem with people who do. When I have installed the light fixture where another electrician wired to this method I have always used the white as the switch leg as it made more sense to me logically. Black is always power, I use any other color as switch leg. Seems simpler that way.. at least we can have one sure thing - black is always hot.

I understand the logic for not using it too however and I will do this the other way from now on but think the code needs to be reworded here. For those making comments along the lines of "any qualified electrician should know this" or similar comments, get a grip and grow up. If you honestly say this isn't the least bit unclear, you are severely undermining everything you say from this point on. There are a ton of very smart people that agree with me, and while they may be wrong as I am, we are not idiots for seeing things this way. So lets not dumn down the entire forum here.

I'm sorry if you felt my post 30 was aimed at you as it was not, is just was a statement in general of seeing the NEC being reworded to clear somethings that most electrician's should know, and after thinking about it, you are correct, as I wasn't thinking that there are younger electrician's that might have not seen a load switch this way, back 20 years ago it was a very common way of wiring, as we used to call it spidering, run the home runs to the light box in each room and run one 14/2 or 12/2 down to each device, even the switch for the light, but now it seems much less common because of the wire count in the light box's became a violation. so now I see electrician's drilling half the rooms studs out to run around the wall, so now realizing the old way is not so common today, so I guessed a dead end switch leg would be something most electrician's would know as soon as we see just a 14 or 12/2 NM in a switch box, guess I was wrong, so I apologize if you took this as me pointing my post at you, I'm not like that.

and please don't grade the forum for this, as we are all here to learn, and we do have fun from time to time, and while we all may not see eye to eye on everything in the code book, it is said we do learn to agree to disagree.

Stick around you will like it

 

[LarryFine]

... back 20 years ago it was a very common way of wiring, as we used to call it spidering, run the home runs to the light box in each room and run one 14/2 or 12/2 down to each device, even the switch for the light ...

That probably originated from the earliest days of house wiring, with just a lighting outlet in the ceiling, with a pull-chain on a pendant.

 

[hurk27]

That probably originated from the earliest days of house wiring, with just a lighting outlet in the ceiling, with a pull-chain on a pendant.

very true, and I have to learn to keep an open mind because of the newer generation of electrician's who might have not ever seen some of the stuff we seasoned sparkys have over the years

Now I just have to figure out what it was I was seasoned with? salt or pepper, or could it be sugar
yea thats it sugar

 

[iwire]

I am lost, we still use switch legs quite often.

For us it depends on if the we get the walls early on. Often we have all the wiring of a office building hanging from the ceiling long before the walls are in place. Heck, sometimes even the lighting is in place before walls.

 

[hurk27]

Yea I still use it too by using box extentions or just very deep box's for the light, I never under stood drilling out every wall or causing a make up to be done in almost every device box, because when you spider you only have one make up at the light to do. but there are times when spidering is not the best way to go, like when you have a second floor above the room. but even with conduit, I see the newer guys even trying to run conduit around the room instead of spidering:roll:

Back when I move here from Florida in "83", the first electrical job I got up here, I was shocked when they told me to just drill out every stud in each room, I about fell over laughing, I said you got to be kidding.

 

[LarryFine]

Back when I move here from Florida in "83", the first electrical job I got up here, I was shocked when they told me to just drill out every stud in each room, I about fell over laughing, I said you got to be kidding.

You shluld have said "Why don't you order them pre-drilled?" :roll:

 

[glene77is]

MikePett,

""
200.7(C)(2) the white conductor has to supply power to the switch.
""
and be marked as a Current Carrying Conductor,
such as inked black stripes or black tape or black paint.

Makes me mad when I brush up against a 'hot' white wire!
Makes me want to say "Here, hold this for me!"

 

[glene77is]

That probably originated from the earliest days of house wiring, with just a lighting outlet in the ceiling, with a pull-chain on a pendant.

Just like my grand-daddy's old farm house.
He tied strings to each door jamb.
Nowadays, we call it a four-way switch.

 

[glene77is]

So lets not dumn down the entire forum here.

Mike,
Take it easy, this can be an informative forum.


I've been called for not being careful enough
in interpreting code.

By reading the push-and-pull on this forum
I've learned that there are electricians
better at tweaking and teezing the NEC
than I am.

I have a physics background
would rather see theory and equations,
and that leads me to be impatient with the way
some of these guys work at interpreting the NEC.

But there is a lot to be learned in the NEC forum.
And I've had moderators so inform me.

 

[glene77is]

Power taken to light first, then a cable down to the switch.

480,
I use the star design in most renovations.
I can reach the ceiling lite box easily.
It makes a fish down a wall much simpler.

In rewiring a K&T house,
I use the star design almost everywhere.
(1) From under,
this means a single poke up to a receptical.
(2) From over,
this makes a single fish down to the switch.

Works for me.

 

[glene77is]

I just hate switch loops from a service standpoint. If you have a problem with a switch loop, you've gotta pull the light fix...... errr.... luminaire..... down.

Feeding the switch first makes troubleshooting much easier. If I know the only splices in the ceiling are from the switch leg to the light fixt..... sorry..... luminaire...... then chances are, it's easier to troubleshoot and fix.

480,
I think you are basically right.

It is easier to troubleshoot (err... analyze)
and fix (err... repair) a circuit.

I certainly agree that removing a switch
is easier than removing a lite fixture.

I guess you do a lot of 'new' installations.
I do mostly renovation 'old' work and repairs.

 

[wwhitney]

Take a look at 200.7(C)(2).

This topic comes up every so often; the last time I am aware of is this thread. I am of the opinion that 200.7(C)(2) is an anachronism that is made obsolete by 200.7(C)(1). Apparently the code writing committee agrees with me, as proposal 5-44 to delete 200.7(C)(2) was accepted for the 2011 NEC.

Yours, Wayne

 

[jimport]

If the proposal goes thru for the 011 all of this will be cleared up for good. The proposal calls for a neutral at the switch box to allow for other sytle of switches that might need a neutral.

Didn't the front of the codebook say something about not being a design manual?

 

[LarryFine]

... and be marked as a Current Carrying Conductor, ...

No, as "an ungrounded conductor." They're all CCC's.

 

[glene77is]

No, as "an ungrounded conductor." They're all CCC's.

Larry,
You are right, as usual.

 

[PetrosA]

I don't think I've ever seen a white feeding back up to a light or receptacle. I have seen seasoned electricians use the white as a traveler in a three or four way though, which to my understanding is not correct. Isn't white (marked or taped) only supposed to be used as the point in a dead end three/four way system?

 

[LarryFine]

Larry,
You are right, as usual.

Aw, shucks! :roll: