Self grounding receptacles

[M. D.]

IMO, the wording is IFFY.....the switch shall be considered effectively grounded when it is mounted with metal screws, TO A METAL BOX. That is not the case here. It's mounting to the raised cover, not the box.

Secondly, 404.9 (b) effectively makes you realize that THE SWITCH IS REQUIRED TO GROUND THE PLATE, NOT THE PLATE GROUNDING THE SWITCH.

So these graphics are wrong ?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

So these graphics are wrong ?

Those graphice are not showing an industrial raised cover,,,,,and as a matter of fact, they point out that the switch must be screwed to a metal box. That is not the case with a raised cover, and your graphics do not depict a raised cover. IT says what it says. Swittch is considered grounded when screwed to a metal box. I'm not adding or taking away. It says what it says. 404.9 (b) says the switch SHALL GROUND THE PLATE, not the other way around.

 

[M. D.]

found this ,..thought I share it .
2007 ROP

9-96 Log #2248 NEC-P09 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(404.9(B)(1))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Joseph Penachio, Joe Penachio Electrician
Recommendation: Revise as follows:

(B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches,
shall be effectively grounded and shall provide a means to ground metal
faceplates, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be
considered effectively grounded if either of the following conditions is met.

(1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or device
extension, raised cover that is secured to the box with a minimum two 8/32 in.
screws and is in direct metal to metal contact to the box, or to a nonmetallic
box with integral means for grounding devices.

(2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bonding jumper is
connected to an equipment grounding termination of the snap switch.
Substantiation: A 4 in. square blank cover is not required to have a bonding
jumper installed to ground it to the box because it is considered effectively
grounded by being secured by two screws and having metal to metal contact
between the box and the cover. In fact, there is more yoke contact to a raised
cover than there is from a yoke to a handy box which is allowed as metal-to-
metal contact. Being secured by two 8/32 in. screws the extension or raised
cover are electrically and mechanically secure. Removing the cover with the
switch on it does not pose any danger to a qualified person than if there were a
jumper installed.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 404.9(B)(1) as it is incorporated within Proposal 9-18 by adding the
words “or metal cover” after the words “metal box” and before the words “that
is connected to an equipment grounding conductor …”
The final text of 404.9(B)(1) will read as follows:
(1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or metal cover
that is connected to an equipment grounding conductor or to a nonmetallic box
with integral means for connecting to an equipment grounding conductor.

Panel Statement: The panel action meets the objectives of the submitter, who
correctly pointed out the absence of coverage for snap switches mounted in
raised covers. As in the case of receptacles in raised covers, the requirements for snap switches are less severe than those for receptacles.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 1
Ballot Not Returned: 1 de Vega, H.

Explanation of Negative:
BELISLE, R.: The proposed action and statement by the panel allows for
switches mounted in raised industrial covers to be grounded via the cover,
therefore exposing the electrician to a shock hazard when mounting screws
become loose, the cover is removed to service the device, take test
measurements, or other activities OSHA would allow while energized.
Installation of a bonding jumper to the box from the device is a small request
in exchange for a safe installation. See my statement for proposal 9- 95 also
regarding the effective grounding of a switch.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

found this ,..thought I share it .
2007 ROP

This is what I meant by the wording is "IFFY". The rewording is more clear.

But without the rewording, it says the switch shall ground the plate, not the other way around. I've believed this to be true, and always land grounds on switches mounted in raised covers.

 

[M. D.]

This is what I meant by the wording is "IFFY". The rewording is more clear.

But without the rewording, it says the switch shall ground the plate, not the other way around. I've believed this to be true, and always land grounds on switches mounted in raised covers.

So Va. is still on the 2005 code??

 

[mcclary's electrical]

So Va. is still on the 2005 code??

Yes,,,still on '05

 

[benaround]

Mcclary,

The switches in the graphic's are not mounted to a metal box either, they use the same

two 8/32 screws to hold the plaster ring on, that you use to hold a raised cover on, how

many self grounding devices are installed in this manner ? Millions !!

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Mcclary,

The switches in the graphic's are not mounted to a metal box either, they use the same

two 8/32 screws to hold the plaster ring on, that you use to hold a raised cover on, how

many self grounding devices are installed in this manner ? Millions !!

I know the difference, and know there are millions installed this way. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in china? My point is, the code says what it says. The switch is supposed to ground the plate, not the other way around. I'm strictly talking about the wording of this article. I don't care how many of you have ignored it. The wording is not perfect.

 

[M. D.]

...... The wording is not perfect.

Based on the 2005 by the CMP's own statement you have a point ,... not so much under the 2008

Panel Statement:
The panel action meets the objectives of the submitter, who
correctly pointed out the absence of coverage for snap switches mounted in
raised covers. As in the case of receptacles in raised covers, the requirements for snap switches are less severe than those for receptacles.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11

 

[electricmanscott]

IMO, the wording is IFFY.....the switch shall be considered effectively grounded when it is mounted with metal screws, TO A METAL BOX. That is not the case here. It's mounting to the raised cover, not the box.

Secondly, 404.9 (b) effectively makes you realize that THE SWITCH IS REQUIRED TO GROUND THE PLATE, NOT THE PLATE GROUNDING THE SWITCH.

Right after TO A METAL BOX it says or a metal cover, why did you leave that out? :-?

I'm not sure it even applies to what is being talked about here but I still wonder.

 

[M. D.]

Right after TO A METAL BOX it says or a metal cover, why did you leave that out? :-?

I'm not sure it even applies to what is being talked about here but I still wonder.

He is reading the 2005 NEC

 

[mcclary's electrical]

He is reading the 2005 NEC

Thanks, MD. I should have clarified. My 05' does not say, or metal cover. just box.

 

[infinity]

He is reading the 2005 NEC

Thanks, MD. I should have clarified. My 05' does not say, or metal cover. just box.

Now your response makes more sense. I though that I was missing something.

 

[LarryFine]

So Va. is still on the 2005 code??

Yes,,,still on '05

And (from what I've read in many threads here), not complaining!

 

[mcclary's electrical]

And (from what I've read in many threads here), not complaining!

Ain't that the truth!! There are many changes in the 08' I don't agree with.

 

[jeremysterling]

When I see the word box, I think of a geometric shape with six sides. To me, the cover is an integral part of the "box".

Think of it this way: When the AHJ requires you to paint your boxes a certain color, do you paint the box or the cover?

 

[wbrown66]

2008 NEC Handbook

2008 NEC Handbook

In the 2008 NEC handbook the picture in Exhibit 250.56 pg 254, shows a raised cover with a flat-nonraised portion for the cover mounting screw holes. In the picture there is text that states "Bonding jumper required..." In my mind I thought that this was a perfect picture for when an EG jumper is NOT required. For any of you who have the 08 handbook, can you tell me what I am missing. Besides that the picture is not enforceable.


I thought I would post here instead of opening a new thread.

Thanks

 

[infinity]

In the 2008 NEC handbook the picture in Exhibit 250.56 pg 254, shows a raised cover with a flat-nonraised portion for the cover mounting screw holes. In the picture there is text that states "Bonding jumper required..." In my mind I thought that this was a perfect picture for when an EG jumper is NOT required. For any of you who have the 08 handbook, can you tell me what I am missing. Besides that the picture is not enforceable.


I thought I would post here instead of opening a new thread.

Thanks

I agree with you. The photo is likely incorrect. They used the same photo in the 2005 NECH. My guess is that the cover should have been one of these:

 

[wbrown66]

Thanks

Thanks

Thanks for the picture. This is what I thought the picture should be in the handbook.