Receptacle for TV in the Kitchen

[480sparky]

I disagree. The receptacle under question is not covered by 210.52(A). How do we know? Because 210.52 (prior to sub paragraph A) says so. So I believe you can use a 15 amp circuit for this application.

All I read into that is that the recep at 6' cannot be counted as a required recep.

I noticed this a while ago and it begs a question, why is dining room mentioned in both the AFCI and SABC requirements. If you were to continue a kitchen countertop branch circuit down to cover the outlets in the dining rm. (very common) then it would have GFCI protection unless you wired it different to not include the dining room outlets as GFCI protected. At the same time are you protecting this with an AFCI/GFCI combo breaker or another alternative?

Reason I am asking is Oregon did not adopt the AFCI rule and I don't have to deal with this. Don't ask I just live here!!:grin:

The AFCI requirement for dining room receps does not prevent you from having them GFCI protected. It would be just as easy to extend a GFCI-protected SABC into the dining room, or split an SABC between the dining room and c'top and protect just the c'top receps.

There's no requirement in the NEC stating the dining cannot be GFCI protected, any more than if you wanted to protect every recep in a dwelling with a GFCI.

 

[mivey]

Can a receptacle for a TV that is placed on a shelf above the countertop (part of the upper cabinets) be installed using 14AWG NM cable, supplied by a 15 ampere rated circuit breaker?
The receptacle will be located approximetely 6 feet above the finished floor.

Yes .

 

[mivey]

I don't think so.

SABCs are not limited to just the c'tops.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

But consider this:

210.52 ...The receptacles required by this section
shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with
210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor

 

[480sparky]

But consider this:

Again, that simply tells me that you cannot count a recep at 6' off the floor (from the OP) as one of those required for the 12' rule.

 

[iwire]

Again, that simply tells me that you cannot count a recep at 6' off the floor (from the OP) as one of those required for the 12' rule.

And again I will say the receptacle under question is not covered by 210.52(A).

You seem to be trying to read 210.52(A) two different ways at the same time, you say I can count it as a receptacle required by it but at the same time you say it applies.

 

[480sparky]

And again I will say the receptacle under question is not covered by 210.52(A).

You seem to be trying to read 210.52(A) two different ways at the same time, you say I can count it as a receptacle required by it but at the same time you say it applies.

Uh, where did I say you can count it?

All I read into that is that the recep at 6' cannot be counted as a required recep. ..........

Again, that simply tells me that you cannot count a recep at 6' off the floor (from the OP) as one of those required for the 12' rule.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am confused. Ken, are you saying that a receptacle mounted in an upper cabinet for UC lighting is not code compliant?

 

[iwire]

Uh, where did I say you can count it?

My mistake, it was a typo, I intended to say cannot.

And that is why I feel you're going opposite directions at the same time.

 

[480sparky]

My mistake, it was a typo, I intended to say cannot.

And that is why I feel you're going opposite directions at the same time.

210.52(4) tells me that any recep above 5'-6" cannot count as a required receptacle when it comes to spacing wall receps.

Let's say this is a 13' long wall. I cannot have just two receps on this wall, one at 16" and the one at 6'. I must have another one below 5'-6" in order to comply. THAT is the only interpretation I have of that Code reference. I don't know where you're finding I'm getting two.

210.52(B)(1) tells me all the wall outlets in a kitchen (according to the OP) must be on an SABC.

I am confused. Ken, are you saying that a receptacle mounted in an upper cabinet for UC lighting is not code compliant?

I must be more confused than you. Where did I imply that?

 

[raider1]

210.52(B)(1) tells me all the wall outlets in a kitchen (according to the OP) must be on an SABC.

210.52(B)(1) says:

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

I believe that a receptacles installed above 5 1/2 feet are not covered by 210.52(A) therefore 210.52(B)(1) would not apply to those receptacles.

JMHO,

Chris

 

[iwire]

210.52(4) tells me that any recep above 5'-6" cannot count as a required receptacle when it comes to spacing wall receps.

Let's say this is a 13' long wall. I cannot have just two receps on this wall, one at 16" and the one at 6'. I must have another one below 5'-6" in order to comply. THAT is the only interpretation I have of that Code reference. I don't know where you're finding I'm getting two.

210.52(B)(1) tells me all the wall outlets in a kitchen (according to the OP) must be on an SABC.

I cannot say it better than Chris has.

I believe that a receptacles installed above 5 1/2 feet are not covered by 210.52(A) therefore 210.52(B)(1) would not apply to those receptacles.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If it is in the kitchen how will the user know they can't use a toaster on it ?

 

[iwire]

If it is in the kitchen how will the user know they can't use a toaster on it ?

Why does that matter?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Why does that matter?

If it doesn't then what is the point of having SA circuits ?

 

[iwire]

If it doesn't then what is the point of having SA circuits ?

I cannot answer that but any appliance with a 15 amp plug can be used on a 15 amp circuit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is Pierres Question

Can a receptacle for a TV that is placed on a shelf above the countertop (part of the upper cabinets) be installed using 14AWG NM cable, supplied by a 15 ampere rated circuit breaker?
The receptacle will be located approximetely 6 feet above the finished floor.

I must be more confused than you. Where did I imply that?[/quote]

Here is your reply in post #4

I don't think so.

SABCs are not limited to just the c'tops.

210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

It sounds as though you are saying the outlet that Pierre asked about is not allowed but that is no different then an outlet for an uc light. :-?

 

[gotmud]

So here's another one...Many people want switched outlets above their upper cabnets for rope lighting etc...Can you come off of the SABC to the switch to feed those and does it have to be arc faulted???

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So here's another one...Many people want switched outlets above their upper cabnets for rope lighting etc...Can you come off of the SABC to the switch to feed those and does it have to be arc faulted???

I will say no and nothing in the kitchen needs arc fault. Nothing.:grin:

 

[gotmud]

I will say no and nothing in the kitchen needs arc fault. Nothing.:grin:

Ok I understand the NO on the arc fault but isn't that outlet part of the "shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets?"

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am holding steady on my interpretation and opinion that the answer to the OP's question would yes, it is allowed and it can be 15A.

1) It is not a small appliance branch circuit
2) It does not serve the counter top
3) It fits nicely under 210.52 and 210.52(3) &(4) since it is more than 5-1/2' above the floor and located within cabinetry.

Do we not install receptacles inside cabinets for low voltage undercounter lights? They are usually on a 15 amp circuit.

I have not read all of the responses, although this is a thread I started. I am very surprised at the number of responses. I will read the rest of the responses, but feel obligated as the OP to give a quick response at first of how I understand this scenario to should be installed.

The 2 posts I quoted above are what my understanding is. As long as the receptacles are not within the scope of the small appliance branch circuit and wall receptacle minimum requirements, they are permitted to be installed as 15 ampere rated branch circuits. There are other considerations such as 210.19(A)(1), 210.23, 110.3(B), etc...

Thankyou for all of the responses, I hope to get through them all by this afternoon.