Receptacle for TV in the Kitchen

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I would like to add this to some peoples thoughts in regards to other receptacles in a kitchen being required to be on a 20 ampere rated circuit.

210.11(C)(1)
Does not state that all receptacles in a kitchen are required to be on a 20 ampere rated branch circuit.

210.52(B)(3) states "additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1)."

No where do I see that receptacles located in cabinets, wall space above 5-1/2 ft, or part of appliances,have to be installed on a 20 ampere branch circuit.
If the NEC was intent on having other receptacles on a 20 ampere branch circuit, I am sure we would see that stated as so. Similar to the wording used for GFCI requirements of 210.8 & Arc Fault requirements of 210.12(B).
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
The small appliance supplied receptacles/branch circuits are not permitted to have other outlets -notice outlets and not just receptacles.

With that said, the wording (it may not be intentional), does not support the fact that all receptacles in a kitchen are required to be supplied by a 20 ampere rated branch circuit.

Just the small appliance branch circuit/receptacles (where they are required), are required to be rated at 20 amperes.

If what you are saying, then the receptacles under the sink which may supply low-voltage lighting or a dishwasher or disposal would also be required to be 20 amperes - which they may not be depending on the load served.
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there are exceptions for those units, are there not?
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
I would like to add this to some peoples thoughts in regards to other receptacles in a kitchen being required to be on a 20 ampere rated circuit.

210.11(C)(1)
Does not state that all receptacles in a kitchen are required to be on a 20 ampere rated branch circuit.

210.52(B)(3) states "additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1)."

No where do I see that receptacles located in cabinets, wall space above 5-1/2 ft, or part of appliances,have to be installed on a 20 ampere branch circuit.
If the NEC was intent on having other receptacles on a 20 ampere branch circuit, I am sure we would see that stated as so. Similar to the wording used for GFCI requirements of 210.8 & Arc Fault requirements of 210.12(B).
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i guess i was assuming that small appliance branch circuits are ONLY 20amps. according to the code can you have a 15amp small appliance circuit? i am not sure that the code allows that.
 
rwreuter said:
i guess i was assuming that small appliance branch circuits are ONLY 20amps. according to the code can you have a 15amp small appliance circuit? i am not sure that the code allows that.
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The code is silent on that however some appliances, as I stated earlier, require a 15 amp circuit.
 
iwire said:
The clock exception was not required it simply grants permission to add a clock receptacle onto the SABC.

I could just as easily supply the clock with a dedicated 15 amp circuit assuming the clock is up high on the wall.
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iwire said:
The clock exception was not required it simply grants permission to add a clock receptacle onto the SABC.

I could just as easily supply the clock with a dedicated 15 amp circuit assuming the clock is up high on the wall.
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Bob,
I agree with you. And the clock rec. could just as easily be on a 15 amp general purpose branch circuit.

But I did not say required I said needed. And I contend that the exception is needed for those installers that choice to extend the 20 amp small appliance cercuit to a clock rec. mounted 72” above the floor in a kitchen.

In contrast I contend that if this same rec. was to supply a TV. You cannot extend the small appliance circuit to a TV rec. If it was mounted in the exact same location.

The point I am making is the clock rec is in the kitchen and the very existence of the need for the exception proves that the 20 amp small appliance rec. could not supply any rec. above 5 ? ft with out permission given in an exception.

We all know that the clock rec. and that matter the TV. Rec. both are allowed in the exact same location. The restriction is to the circuit you supply them with. The clock rec is allowed (permitted) on the 20 amp small appliance circuit the TV rec is excluded from being supplied from a 20 amp small appliance circuit in the kitchen.
 
rwreuter said:
i guess i was assuming that small appliance branch circuits are ONLY 20amps. according to the code can you have a 15amp small appliance circuit? i am not sure that the code allows that.
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210.11 Branch Circuits Required.
(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

You can have appliances throughout a dwelling supplied on 20 amp or 15 amp branch circuits, but when the code refers to a branch circuit as a small appliance branch circuit that circuit has to be 20 amp
 
david said:
The point I am making is the clock rec is in the kitchen and the very existence of the need for the exception proves that the 20 amp small appliance rec. could not supply any rec. above 5 ? ft with out permission given in an exception.
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But that is only so that you can put the clock rec on the SABC. We're not talking about using the SABC in this thread.
 
david said:
210.11 Branch Circuits Required.
(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).

You can have appliances throughout a dwelling supplied on 20 amp or 15 amp branch circuits, but when the code refers to a branch circuit as a small appliance branch circuit that circuit has to be 20 amp
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that is what i thought, so if you are to have other receptacles not outlined in the specified exceptions they have to be 20amp
 
jaylectricity said:
But that is only so that you can put the clock rec on the SABC. We're not talking about using the SABC in this thread.
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Yes
And the fact that its not required to be but given permission to instead. Proves this rec. in an area above 51/2 ft, is the area that you normally would have to supply the rec. with a general purpose or individual branch circuit. General purpose branch circuits are not required to be 20 amp circuits and can be 15amp circuits, and are not required to be dedicated.

This should be of interest to all of those who take the position that all the rec. in a kitchen has to be on a 20 amp small appliance circuit.
 
rwreuter said:
that is what i thought, so if you are to have other receptacles not outlined in the specified exceptions they have to be 20amp
Click to expand...

That is a whole different discussion and it will go on longer than this one. I would suggest you go back and read the link posted by Curt Swartz in post #66 before you open that can of worms
 
In fairness to you I believe there are perimeters set for the required rec. serving counter wall space. And I believe there are perimeters set for required rec. serving the rest of the kitchen wall space.

I believe that the rec. that are in addition to the rec. that are required fall outside of those perimeters. Those can be on 15 amp branch circuits, those can be on 20 amp branch circuits, they sometimes have to be on 20 amp branch circuits, (not dedicated 20 amp small appliance branch circuits), and sometimes depending on the load they would have to be on 15 amp branch circuits.

Everyone mentioned the permissive rule to allow a refrigerator on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. Most of you know that was not always the case. Why the permissive rule instead of a required rule for the 15 amp refrigerator dedicated rec outlet.

A dedicated circuit can only serve one outlet (not rec. But outlet).so it depends on where the refrigerator receptacle is placed and how many outlets the branch circuit serves. This will determine weather the branch circuit needs to be 15 amp dedicated or 20 amp small appliance.

Back when the rec. for the refrigerator was required to be on a 20 amp small appliance branch circuit. Designers started running dedicated small appliance branch circuits to serve only the refrigerator so it would be more unlikely that that circuit would experience overloads and open the branch circuit. Section 210 required that to be a 20 amp small appliance branch circuit. Section 210 now was in conflict with article 422 and article 240 directing you to provide overcorrect protection more closely related to the appliance full load current (name plate data), to resolve the conflict an exception was added to allow the 15 amp dedicated circuit for refrigeration equipment. Refrigerators are usually in dedicated spaces and are not really likely to be moved around from place to place.At least that was the way it was explained to me.
 
480sparky said:
"Back when"? It still is. 210.52(B)(1).
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210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets
(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

I was referring to the permissive rule allowing 15 amp dedicated branch circuit ( A 20 amp small appliance circuit IMO doesn?t meet the restrictions of a dedicated circuit only serving one outlet in contrast to a small appliance circuit only serving outlets (plural) for small appliances.)

In my opinion your given permission for a branch circuit with a lower ampacity then a 20 amp small appliance circuit but tighter restrictions since the individual circuit is only allowed to supply one outlet (point of connection) to the branch circuit,

Am I miss reading this somehow?
 
David , I think your reading skills are fine:)

Like I said in post 14 ,.. to place this described t.v. receptacle outlet on a small appliance branch circuit would , in my opinion,. be a violation. It is one of those "shall have no other outlets" outlets, just like the clock and gas range igniter are but unlike the clock and gas range this receptacle is not allowed on a SABC,.. the clock and range are through an exception to the rule . If this opinion is wrong we would not need the exception at all ..
 
M. D. said:
It is one of those "shall have no other outlets" outlets, just like the clock and gas range igniter are but unlike the clock and gas range this receptacle is not allowed on a SABC,.. the clock and range are through an exception to the rule .
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Okay, perfect solution: Install a clock receptacle and plug the TV into it.
 
For a TV

For a TV

Pierre C Belarge said:
Can a receptacle for a TV that is placed on a shelf above the countertop (part of the upper cabinets) be installed using 14AWG NM cable, supplied by a 15 ampere rated circuit breaker?
The receptacle will be located approximetely 6 feet above the finished floor.
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The receptacle is installed for a TV, which can be an appliance, just like a clock or a dishwasher. If it is designated for an appliance, it can be rated for the appliance load. You could put it on a 10 amp CB if you wanted to.
 
rikthejman said:
Sounds like a good idea. Jump off the lighting/plug circuit close by, it has AFCI protection, right? As long as you are more than 20" above countertop (210.52(C)(5) they are not required to be on S/A circuit. And 210.52(B)(2) will not allow the circuit to supply the receptacle unless it is for a clock or a gas range/cooktop and its controls. I guess you could say the outlet was for a clock and use the S/A circuit.:roll:
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A good observation...especially using a clock with a TV in it. rbj
 
As long as you have the two small app circiuts with only what the exceptions allow to be on them I see no issue. Extra outlets are required as long as they arent at countertop level I dont see them havibg to be gfci.
 
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