Receptacle for TV in the Kitchen

Status
Not open for further replies.
gotmud said:
Ok I understand the NO on the arc fault but isn't that outlet part of the "shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets?"
Click to expand...
Well you cannot quote a part of the sentence. Read art.210.52(B)(1)

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Click to expand...

Where does it state that another outlet cannot be installed. We had a similar argument about dining rooms. Suppose someone installed a window a/c in a dining that required a 15 amp cir. Can you install a dedicated 15 amp cir there????

I feel that once you install the required outlets for the countertop then the 15 amp recep cir. above the counter is okay. Obviously not everyone feels the same.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Well you cannot quote a part of the sentence. Read art.210.52(B)(1)



Where does it state that another outlet cannot be installed. We had a similar argument about dining rooms. Suppose someone installed a window a/c in a dining that required a 15 amp cir. Can you install a dedicated 15 amp cir there????

I feel that once you install the required outlets for the countertop then the 15 amp recep cir. above the counter is okay. Obviously not everyone feels the same.
Click to expand...

Both 210.23 and 210.52(1) would allow you to run a 15A circuit to the A/C unit in the dining room because it serves an appliance.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I feel that once you install the required outlets for the countertop then the 15 amp recep cir. above the counter is okay. Obviously not everyone feels the same.
Click to expand...

OK, so let's take away any distinction on how high or low the receptacles are, let's just take a 4'11" counter top. Obviously, there needs to be two receptacles on an SABC, one placed within 2 feet of the left side of the counter, and another placed within 2 feet of the right side. But what you're saying is that if I wanted to add a 15 amp receptacle on a dedicated circuit in the middle of those, that would be OK, as long as I had the two required receptacles?
 
SABC 101:
210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.


ALL is the keyword here, regardless of height, it even goes as far as to say floor receptacles, which of course you don't see very often. Outside of any of the specific exceptions listed everything has to be a 20amp circuit in those areas.
 
jaylectricity said:
But what you're saying is that if I wanted to add a 15 amp receptacle on a dedicated circuit in the middle of those, that would be OK, as long as I had the two required receptacles?
Click to expand...

I didn't say that and I don't believe that is okay but if it is above the 20 inch countertop recep. heights then I believe it is okay

rwreuter said:
ALL is the keyword here, regardless of height, it even goes as far as to say floor receptacles, which of course you don't see very often. Outside of any of the specific exceptions listed everything has to be a 20amp circuit in those areas.
Click to expand...

So how do we wire a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp branch circuit or a recep. for uc lights. I have to strongly disagree with your opinion.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
.............So how do we wire a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp branch circuit or a recep. for uc lights. I have to strongly disagree with your opinion.
Click to expand...

If it's hardwired, there's no receptacle. If it's cord-and-lug connected, the receptacle is in the cabinet above.
 
480sparky said:
If it's hardwired, there's no receptacle. If it's cord-and-lug connected, the receptacle is in the cabinet above.
Click to expand...
Yes and it is in the wall. My point is that I see no difference from the shelf that Pierre is talking about and the recep. in the cabinets.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I didn't say that and I don't believe that is okay but if it is above the 20 inch countertop recep. heights then I believe it is okay



So how do we wire a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp branch circuit or a recep. for uc lights. I have to strongly disagree with your opinion.
Click to expand...


you can disagree, but it still doesn't change the NEC.
 
This post sure has had its up and downs...

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets starts with 210.52.

This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

(1)Part of a luminaire or apppliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboard, or
(4) Located more than 5 1/2 ft above the floor

210.52(C)(5) countertops, which you also need to follow for SABC says you need to be not more than 20" above counter tops.
 
I’m going to give my 2 Cents in general terms since you all have gone over the specifics in depth.

The wall space in a kitchen is required to be supplied by 20 amp small appliance circuits, that serve no other outlets. An exception is given to extend this circuit to a clock which would commonly be out of the 5 ? restriction for the area that a small appliance circuit can serve. Small appliance circuits are not allowed to supply permanently connected lighting. An exception is provide to supply appliance with lighting as part of the appliance.

There is an exception given for a specific general purpose circuit for (15 or 20 amp switched lighting)

There is an exception given for an individual 15 amp circuit (refrigerator).

My thought is that general purpose branch circuits, individual branch circuits, and small appliance circuits are all covered in the requirements for kitchens.

Can the wall space be served by a 15 amp general purpose branch circuit? Yes if it’s for a rec. that is switched for a light.

Can the wall space be served by an individual 15 amp branch circuit ? yes if it is for a refrigerator.
 
Last edited:
david said:
I?m going to give my 2 Cents in general terms since you all have gone over the specifics in depth.

The wall space in a kitchen is required to be supplied by 20 amp small appliance circuits, that serve no other outlets. An exception is given to extend this circuit to a clock which would commonly be out of the 5 ? restriction for the area that a small appliance circuit can serve. Small appliance circuits are not allowed to supply permanently connected lighting. An exception is provide to supply appliance with lighting as part of the appliance.

There is an exception given for a specific general purpose circuit for (15 or 20 amp switched lighting)

There is an exception given for an individual 15 amp circuit (refrigerator).

My thought is that general purpose branch circuits, individual branch circuits, and small appliance circuits are all covered in the requirements for kitchens.

Can the wall space be served by a 15 amp general purpose branch circuit? Yes if it?s for a rec. that is switched for a light.

Can the wall space be served by an individual 15 amp branch circuit ? yes if it is for a refrigerator.
Click to expand...



that sums it rather well
 
I guess this thread has been around a few times. I also pity anyone who gets a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp circuit and an inspector who enforces it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I guess this thread has been around a few times. I also pity anyone who gets a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp circuit and an inspector who enforces it.
Click to expand...

That would be a general purpose branch circuit; kitchen counter wall spaces are required to be served by a small appliance branch circuit, not kitchen cabinets. If you do not put the receptacle in an area that would serve the kitchen counter wall space the receptacle would not be required on the small appliance branch circuit.
 
david said:
That would be a general purpose branch circuit; kitchen counter wall spaces are required to be served by a small appliance branch circuit, not kitchen cabinets. If you do not put the receptacle in an area that would serve the kitchen counter wall space the receptacle would not be required on the small appliance branch circuit.
Click to expand...


not true, that code section doesn't limit it to only counter top space. ALL receptacles in the kitchen (unless an exception applies) must be 20amp. the code dictates a minium of 2 20amp, you can have more circuits but but they must be 20amp or greater.
 
rwreuter said:
not true, that code section doesn't limit it to only counter top space. ALL receptacles in the kitchen (unless an exception applies) must be 20amp. the code dictates a minium of 2 20amp, you can have more circuits but but they must be 20amp or greater.
Click to expand...

Tangent from the OP thread: Are you saying installing a 30a circuit can be considered an SABC?

Let's say you do, then how do you legally install a receptacle on that circuit?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I guess this thread has been around a few times. I also pity anyone who gets a microwave range hood that requires a 15 amp circuit and an inspector who enforces it.
Click to expand...
The electrician who wired my house put it over 5'6" AFF ... and over 20" above counter tops as well, FWIW.
 
rwreuter said:
not true, that code section doesn't limit it to only counter top space. ALL receptacles in the kitchen (unless an exception applies) must be 20amp. the code dictates a minium of 2 20amp, you can have more circuits but but they must be 20amp or greater.
Click to expand...

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
(B) Small Appliances.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.

Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).

Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:

For you to say that you are not understanding the reason the clock exception had to be given. Small appliance circuits can serve no other outlets not even a clock with a very small load that was above 5 ? ft. so an exception was given to extend the small appliance circuit to this very small load so that wiring from a general purpose branch circuit (appliance/ lighting circuit) did not have to be used to power the clock.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top