Home inspections

[iwire]

I am going to ask you again.. What constitutes electrical work? when is a licensed electricain necessary? Please tell me give me your insight.

• Looking at an electrical system ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Writing a report about what was observed ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Using a 'snake eyes' a 'Suretest' even a multimeter ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Removing a panel cover and looking inside ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Installing, replacing, repairing premises wiring systems that requires a licensed electrician.

The above is a fact in my state and looking at the rules you posted for you're state seems to be the case in your area too.

 

[aaronm]

Cshmid:

Being argumentative just for the sake of taking up bandwidth is not productive. Bask on, brother.:grin:

 

[cschmid]

Cshmid: Fair enough. There are a myriad of things to look for behind a panelboard cover. The short list would look like this:

(1) Before the cover comes off - are the breakers labeled? Are there openings in the panel cover? Are all of the cover plate screws in place, and are they the blunt-ended screw supplied by the manufacturer or are they sharp-pointed sheet metal screws installed by the Sparky or happy homeowner? Is there the required service clearance around the panel? Is it installed at a code-compliant height? Is it installed the proper distance from propane tanks? Is it located too close to a gas appliance vent? Etc., etc., ad infinitum . . .

(2) Are any of the breakers overheating - using an infrared thermometer for measurements.

(3) Are there any damaged breakers?

(4) Are there any scorch marks?

(5) Is the panel full of crap like mice nesting material, dead mice, paint, texture, et al.?

(6) Are the conductors sized properly for the breakers to which they are attached?

(7) Are all of the conductors connected to the panel where they enter with NM clamps?

(8) Is there the proper amount of cable insulation extended within the panel?

(9) Are any of the conductors damaged?

(10) If aluminum, are the conductors attached to breakers listed and labeled for aluminum? Are the bare ends coated with anti-oxidant paste?

(11) Are any of the breakers being used to protect more than one circuit? If so, are the breakers listed and labeled for this application? Are they properly sized according to the circuits they protect?

(12) How many conductors are inserted below each lug in the common and ground bus bars?

(13) If this is a subpanel, are the commons and ground segregated?

(14) Is this a POS panelboard like a Federal Pacific Electric Stab Lok or Zinsco. You know the ones I mean, arc welders in a can?

(15) Are breaker handle bridges in place where required?

(16) Are all of the breakers in the panel of the brand or type allowed for installation in the panel?

(17) Are any of the breakers on a UL or manufacturer recall list?

(18) Is the enclosure rusted? If so, what is the origin of the moisture?

(19) Are there any devices in the panel that do not belong, i.e. doorbell transformers, whole house surge protectors, et al.?

I could go on, bu these are what come to mind right now. Gotta run . . . the brisket needs basting . . .

Fair enough thank You and also what are we having with the ribs...:grin:

 

[cschmid]

• Looking at an electrical system ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Writing a report about what was observed ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Using a 'snake eyes' a 'Suretest' even a multimeter ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
• Removing a panel cover and looking inside ............ not electric work requiring a licensed electrician
  
  This area I still question as in the postings I have posted..Looking for mouse nests are one thing.. If you read 326B.35 toward the bottom of the statement it reads and I quote " and such requirements shall be complied with by all licensed electricians working within the jurisdiction of such political subdivisions." we are talking about making sure of what the correct standards are for the installation. Now If I read that correctly in order for that to be determined you need to be licensed in the state of MN to do that in MN.. Now my question to you is do you think that is a proper interpretation of that rule..If you would like I can repost it..
  
• Installing, replacing, repairing premises wiring systems that requires a licensed electrician.
  
  Okay lets talk repairing premisis wiring..is changing receptacles a repair or what constitutes repair?

The above is a fact in my state and looking at the rules you posted for you're state seems to be the case in your area too.

Well I think there is a little gray area and I want to know how others feel in this area.

 

[cschmid]

Cshmid:

Being argumentative just for the sake of taking up bandwidth is not productive. Bask on, brother.:grin:

Just to broaden my horizon I use up bandwith and I shall continue to seek a consensous on my thoughtS of how gray areas are interpreted in other areas..I will have some more question later on..back to my bride..

 

[TCN]

the Hi's that have answerd this post have state they are required to get in the attic and on the roof andinside the electrical panel can you post links for me to see these regulation please..

I am still waiting to read where an licensed electricain is needed..

So if you use a ideal ciruit test ( I do not have my in fornt of me but the one that measures the resistance and lets you know the voltage drop of circuit) and you use this reading to give an assessment of the elctrical system of a home to a prespective buyer..What is the classification of that type of work and what qualifications do you need to do this??

Currently in my State (capitalized on purpose as it should be) and many others, there are no regulations about who is an HI. There are no limits to what can be 'looked at'. Now, if any wiring is done is when an Electrician is required. But, for testing or observance puposes, nothing. I agree that most are incompetant in the deeper aspects of any trade because most took a course that taught them the basics and the rest is up to the individual to learn. Too many of those rely on OJT which doesn't work when you are supposed to be the resident expert.

 

[cschmid]

Cshmid: Fair enough. There are a myriad of things to look for behind a panelboard cover. The short list would look like this:

(1) Before the cover comes off - are the breakers labeled? Are there openings in the panel cover? Are all of the cover plate screws in place, and are they the blunt-ended screw supplied by the manufacturer or are they sharp-pointed sheet metal screws installed by the Sparky or happy homeowner? Is there the required service clearance around the panel? Is it installed at a code-compliant height? Is it installed the proper distance from propane tanks? Is it located too close to a gas appliance vent? Etc., etc., ad infinitum . . .


(2) Are any of the breakers overheating - using an infrared thermometer for measurements.

(3) Are there any damaged breakers?
just physical damage I asume.


(4) Are there any scorch marks?

(5) Is the panel full of crap like mice nesting material, dead mice, paint, texture, et al.?

(6) Are the conductors sized properly for the breakers to which they are attached?
Can you elaborate on this for me?


(7) Are all of the conductors connected to the panel where they enter with NM clamps?

(8) Is there the proper amount of cable insulation extended within the panel?

(9) Are any of the conductors damaged?

(10) If aluminum, are the conductors attached to breakers listed and labeled for aluminum? Are the bare ends coated with anti-oxidant paste?

(11) Are any of the breakers being used to protect more than one circuit? If so, are the breakers listed and labeled for this application? Are they properly sized according to the circuits they protect?

Can You elaborate on this as well

(12) How many conductors are inserted below each lug in the common and ground bus bars?

can you give more insight here?


(13) If this is a subpanel, are the commons and ground segregated?


(14) Is this a POS panelboard like a Federal Pacific Electric Stab Lok or Zinsco. You know the ones I mean, arc welders in a can?
actually i do not necessary agree with this statement as I have read the reports and are not totally sold that they are all junk. they must be tested before I go there.


(15) Are breaker handle bridges in place where required?

can you elaborate here?

(16) Are all of the breakers in the panel of the brand or type allowed for installation in the panel?

(17) Are any of the breakers on a UL or manufacturer recall list?

can you elaborate here as well?


(18) Is the enclosure rusted? If so, what is the origin of the moisture?

(19) Are there any devices in the panel that do not belong, i.e. doorbell transformers, whole house surge protectors, et al.?

I could go on, bu these are what come to mind right now. Gotta run . . . the brisket needs basting . . .

this is added because the machine did not recognize my questions.

 

[aaronm]

Cshmid: Elaboration is not what you want. Glorification is what you seek. You won't get it from me. I will, however go back to your first question as to what constitutes "electrical work". From the State of Texas:

"Electrical work" means any labor or material
used in installing, maintaining, or extending an electrical wiring
system and the appurtenances, apparatus, or equipment used in
connection with the use of electrical energy in, on, outside, or
attached to a building, residence, structure, property, or
premises. The term includes service entrance conductors as defined by the National Electrical Code.

There is nothing in there that I can see that might preclude home inspectors from performing visual inspections of electrical installations.

Additionally, I might add just to further muddy the waters, that the State of Texas recently passed legislation allowing wrench slingers (plumbers) to perform limited "electrical work" when installing plumbing fixtures which require electrical connections.

Can licensed plumbers perform electrical work now that an exemption relating to ?work performed by a plumber? has been added to the Texas Electrical Licensing Act, Chapter 1305?
Yes, but the electrical work is limited.
An exemption related to plumbers was approved during the 2007 session of the Texas Legislature under HB 1029, which amended the Law to allow licensed plumbers to perform the electrical work necessary to install, service, maintain, repair, or replace any type of plumbing fixture or appliance on existing electrical circuits only.
Simply put, a plumber may disconnect and/or reconnect any plumbing fixture or appliance on existing electrical circuits to perform their jobs, but may not perform any other ?electrical work? without an electrical license issued under Chapter 1305. The exemption does not authorize a plumber to extend or replace an existing wiring service (i.e. to provide power to an apparatus requiring more wattage), nor does it authorize a plumber to enter into the internal parts behind the arc flash cover of an electrical panel board.
A plumber can open the door of an electrical panel to reach the over-current protection (OCP) ?ON/OFF? handle. If the first means of disconnect for a plumbing appliance is the OCP in the panel and the appliance is hard-wired to an electrical box, the plumber may turn the OCP/breaker to the OFF/OPEN position and lock it out in order to disconnect/connect the appliance to the hard-wired electrical box.

It gets worse, but I do not wish to spoil your dinner.:grin:

 

[cschmid]

Lmao You no me not man and yet you put inferences on me. They also allow other trades to do certain electrical work as well. I do appreciate your posting what Texas statues as well.

I would like to know how you determine whether the conductors are sized correctly for the breaker?

I would also like to know about #11 & 12 as well. Not to glorify anything. As I have state nothing to gain except knowledge.

So if you want to share I would appreciate it.

I also wonder how many electricians actually work with electrical plumbing fixtures? I actually can program master trol systems and can operate and repair all types of electrical operated plumbing fixtures.

so my friend I am not glorifying anything; I want to learn how you make determinations on electrical components from visual observations. I want to learn what you have learned from your Home inspector courses on this subject.

 

[cschmid]

• Installing, replacing, repairing premises wiring systems that requires a licensed electrician.

The above is a fact in my state and looking at the rules you posted for you're state seems to be the case in your area too.

Bob and this is the area I have asked about repeatedly here. In Mn they have broke out minor repairs and defined them. So if a sheet rock guy comes in and redoes the sheet rock and they remove and replace the receptacles with new ones is that electrical work? I have used other scenarios as well. I am trying to establish a base line here as to what we all consider electrical work. It is easier to establish clearer statues if there is a base to work from.

My feeling are really my feelings and to establish a base line for the greater good is what I am after. I gain nothing and I mean nothing.

 

[aaronm]

Cschmid: If you actually requre for someone to explain items 11 and 12 to you, you may need to voluntarily relinquish your license . . .

 

[roger]

Cschmid: If you actually requre for someone to explain items 11 and 12 to you, you may need to voluntarily relinquish your license . . .

I think Cs has asked a legitimate question and deserves an explanation of what you mean in these line items.

Roger

 

[ty]

So if a sheet rock guy comes in and redoes the sheet rock and they remove and replace the receptacles with new ones is that electrical work?

IMO:

- if a sheetrock guy is replacing the drywall, and he removes wall plates = Not Electrical work.

- if a sheetrock guy pulls switch or receptacle out a bit and slides extention ring over device = Not Electrical work.

- if a sheetrock guy removes the devices and replaces them all = Electrical work.

 

[aaronm]

I think Cs has asked a legitimate question and deserves an explanation of what you mean in these line items.

Roger

Roger: While I do not agree with your assessment of Cshmid's motivation or the legitimacy of his questions, and do not appreciate your meddling (pardon me, moderating) in a clear attempt to promote more of his off-base interrogatory tactics, I will answer the questions.

Item 11 is self-explanatory. If the breaker in question is not UL listed and labeled for connection of more than one conductor, it is not code-compliant. Why is this difficult for you to understand? What part of listed and labeled eludes you?

Item 12, though describing a different part of the distribution panel, is also self-explanatory. Back to the White Book for both of you. You should be ashamed.

 

[roger]

Roger: While I do not agree with your assessment of Cshmid's motivation or the legitimacy of his questions, and do not appreciate your meddling (pardon me, moderating) in a clear attempt to promote more of his off-base interrogatory tactics, I will answer the questions.

I really don't care if you appreciate it or not, they were valid questions and regardless of Cs's motivation they deserved answers. As far as you feeling like you're being interrogated, if you can answer the questions correctly why would you care?

Item 11 is self-explanatory. If the breaker in question is not UL listed and labeled for connection of more than one conductor, it is not code-compliant. Why is this difficult for you to understand? What part of listed and labeled eludes you?

It's not difficult for us, you were the one being tested. BTW, what if it were listed by another NRTL?

Item 12, though describing a different part of the distribution panel, is also self-explanatory. Back to the White Book for both of you. You should be ashamed.

As I said above, you were the one being tested as to whether you knew why.

I know you are new here and don't really know much about the members or myself and you are experiencing tunnel vision trying to defend yourself and your trade in this one thread but, before you go assuming that I am teaming up against you, you should do some searches to see what my position is on the HI issue.

Roger

 

[aaronm]

I really don't care if you appreciate it or not, they were valid questions and regardless of Cs's motivation they deserved answers.

Rogerator: What you care about or not does not concern me. I do not agree with you. You can change that through civil and logical argumentation or you can go fly a kite.

It's not difficult for us, you were the one being tested.

Rogerator: You are not qualified to test me.

I know you are new here and don't really know much about the members or myself

Rogerator: I have been a reader of this forum for a very long time. I know as much about you as you know about me.

and you are experiencing tunnel vision trying to defend yourself

Rogerator: No tunnel vision on this side of the equation. And, I am perfectly capable of successfully arguing my case with the likes of you.

before you go assuming that I am teaming up against you, you should do some searches to see what my position is on the HI issue.

Rogerator: At the risk of repeating myself, I do not agree that the questions were cogent, but I answered them anyway. Where then is your beef?

 

[roger]

Rogerator: At the risk of repeating myself, I do not agree that the questions were cogent,

To bad

but I answered them anyway.

Good boy

Where then is your beef?

Where do you get the idea I have a beef? I simply stated that Cs's questions deserved an answer and in some way that offended you whether it be for your own insecurity or what ever.

Now, I suggest you adjust your attitude or get ready to see your derogatory posts and comments be removed, I win.

Roger

 

[jim dungar]

Item 11 is self-explanatory.

No, it is not self explanatory.

I read the question three times, and I kept wondering how you determined that more than one circuit was fed by a breaker, and what code prohibited it from doing so.

Then in your answer you discussed multiple conductors being terminated into a single breaker. I wasn't going in this direction at all.

 

[rsole]

Another of those non issues from home inspectors

Another of those non issues from home inspectors

I guess this will be another of theose "non issues" brought up by a lowly home inspector. And this was done by a "licensed" electrician.

 

[aaronm]

I guess this will be another of theose "non issues" brought up by a lowly home inspector. And this was done by a "licensed" electrician.

RS: "Electrical work"?