Home inspections

[iwire]

Roger,
Are you following this post? Here we have people writing electrical system deficiencies on a report from "RUMORS" ? How is this profession policed?

Where I am it is 'policed' by the same people that police electrians and plumbers.

 

[pfalcon]

... But just consider the problems his report can generate if it is never challenged ? Who would buy this house without the ability to "insure" it ! ... His report states that "aluminum wiring is illegal"!

Above quote substantially reduced for brevity sake.

To me if I am buying a home there is nothing about the home that is a 'non issue'. If I hire someone to look at a home and provide a report I want to hear about every detail; than it is between me (the buyer) and the seller to decide if it is an issue or not.

Addressing both quotes above:
If the HI said anything about something in the house being "illegal" then he needs retraining in filling out his reports. About the aluminum wiring, his report should state something like: "This house contains aluminum wiring that should be inspected by an electrician." It is within the scope of the HI to flag potential problems - not to fix them.

Further if an HI report generates an item that makes the house unsellable or would reduce the price for a bogus reason then the correct action is for the seller to hire the appropriate trade. I guarantee if the HI flags aluminum wiring and then an electrician inspects it then the electrician report will override the HI report.

In fact, as Iwire is quoted, that is the whole point of the HI inspection. It does not block a sale or change the price in and of itself. It is there to bring attention to potential problems. The buyer can dismiss the problem or the seller can challenge it. Either way it gets resolved.

The HI provides a $300 buyer's look at the home. Most buyers can afford that price range when bidding. Rather than a $3000 investment of having every trade come in before purchase. If the HI finds an issue, I'll walk away or expect the seller to invest the $300 additional to inspect that system. Or we can negotiate a settlement.

 

[WDeanN]

I am still back at what is electrical work limits? If we can not even reach a common ground how am I suppose to lobby for change if I do not know how others feel. My opinion is not always correct.

All good points..I think the HI is doing our industry a disservice by dispersing bad information and causing unnecessary emotional and financial burdens..which have a probability to come back and haunt us with more regulations..

So if we as electricians are not going to police our own back yards then why all the regulations? who job is it to police our own work areas? At what point do you classify someone doing electrical work? is it only when it takes food off your table or when do you call enough enough?

Well, this is not going to make me very popular, but let me see if I can sum up the argument here...

You are upset because someone else is "doing work," and someone else is paying for it, and you think that "work" belongs to you.
So, because you are unable to convince the homeowners, the realtors, or the insurance companies, on your own, that you are more qualified to do the work, you want to use someone else's money (taxpayers) and the police power of the state to require the homeowner to pay YOU, and not THEM, to do this work, which you would charge more for than the other party.

Did I get this right? :-?

 

[pfalcon]

Quotes clipped for brevity.

... Iwire, i appreciate your input and comments about you wanting to know "every detail" of a non-issue -- but please put yourself in the place of the seller or the inexperienced widow. She must depend on the experience of a HI who is determining his opinion on a rumor. This cost her $5,000.00 ! ...

Your widow should have invested $300 not $5000 up front. She is not required to repair on a rumor. But if she is selling a house that an HI flagged with an issue then she has the choice (1) Fix it without a professional opinion for $5000 or (2) Get it professionally inspected for $300 which might lead to $5000 in repairs if it's required.

... I am still back at what is electrical work limits? If we can not even reach a common ground how am I suppose to lobby for change if I do not know how others feel. My opinion is not always correct.

... Now I know that a home inspector is not making inspections of construction work but they are rendering solutions ...

Which again brings us back to - the HI is not to render solutions. Not if he is doing his job right anyway. He is flagging issues. It is then up to the buyer and seller to come up with a solution. If the flag is on an electrical issue then the seller at their own discretion may pay to have an electrician inspect it. That answers the issue. The EL report overrides the HI report.

Even something as simple as a few holes in a wall should only be flagged like "North bedroom wall has holes knocked into it." I've met plenty of HIs that will then give DIY advice but that's all his advice is worth. If it's a major repair that gets flagged then have the appropriate trade inspect it before contracting it for repair.

 

[cschmid]

IMO the definition you want is self serving, not in the consumers interest or even remotely enforceable.

I do not want self serving I do not do residential..I stand nothing to gain..I think it needs to have more regulation on it like your state does..they should not render solutions just say it needs the attention of a professional..

Well, this is not going to make me very popular, but let me see if I can sum up the argument here...

You are upset because someone else is "doing work," and someone else is paying for it, and you think that "work" belongs to you.
So, because you are unable to convince the homeowners, the realtors, or the insurance companies, on your own, that you are more qualified to do the work, you want to use someone else's money (taxpayers) and the police power of the state to require the homeowner to pay YOU, and not THEM, to do this work, which you would charge more for than the other party.

Did I get this right? :-?

Man You are not even in the same park..I do not even do residential..The HI's here through out some wild things and have no idea what they are talking about..instead of just saying it needs the attention of the professional.

Quotes clipped for brevity.



Your widow should have invested $300 not $5000 up front. She is not required to repair on a rumor. But if she is selling a house that an HI flagged with an issue then she has the choice (1) Fix it without a professional opinion for $5000 or (2) Get it professionally inspected for $300 which might lead to $5000 in repairs if it's required.





Which again brings us back to - the HI is not to render solutions. Not if he is doing his job right anyway. He is flagging issues. It is then up to the buyer and seller to come up with a solution. If the flag is on an electrical issue then the seller at their own discretion may pay to have an electrician inspect it. That answers the issue. The EL report overrides the HI report.

Even something as simple as a few holes in a wall should only be flagged like "North bedroom wall has holes knocked into it." I've met plenty of HIs that will then give DIY advice but that's all his advice is worth. If it's a major repair that gets flagged then have the appropriate trade inspect it before contracting it for repair.

That is what it should be like every where..I noticed that their are few things that do not seem to be normal and sghould have the attention of a professional..

It seems here I am not conveying my point good enough here. I am not whinning I am searching for others defition of what constitutes electrical work. If an HI writes in a report that your panel is a fire hazard and needs a new one, I believe he has stepped over the line as he has no license or is not qualified to do that. So what constitues electrical work..I want to know what you guys think electrical work is..can anyone plan and design electrical what constitutes planing and design? stuff like that..

 

[cschmid]

You know you guys are right in line complaining when you see joe handy man at the box store loading his truck up with electrical supplies to do his buddies basement wiring.

But you will allow a non qualified person to remove the cover of an electrical panel and give his personal advice on it..what advice can he give he is not even qualified to assess it..he plugs his tester in say hey no ground at the outlet this needs repaired even if they are GFCI protected?? how are they qualified? they say you need gfci outlet next to your kitchen sink and basin in bathroom even though there is a GFCI breaker..how is he qualified.. So he writes report and prospective buyer looks at it and then tours your home while your not there..you did not replace outlets as you have GFCI breaker and you dont replace the ungrounded outlets as they are gfci protected. the prospective buyer just say to him self na I am not interested and walks off..Why is the report allowed..that is another issue I just used it as I feel they are doing a diservice to the industry..as a service call is normally one hours worth of wage and it takes no more then that to inspect a place and have it professionally done. If the Hi was regulated like in other states maybe it would be different. But for now it is what it is and now back to my question..

Yet when I ask what you classify as electrical work I am whinning..So why do you not tell me what you classify as electrical work?? Do you need to be licensed to plan electrical work? Do you need to be licensed to do minor work? Is only construction need licensed. I want to see what you guys classify as electrical work. If you accept cash for inspecting a finished electrical service is it classified as electrical work? let me know whaere you stand. that is all I want to know I want to see where the consensious is on what is licensed electrical work and what is not..It seems simple to me..

 

[mike107]

We must realize that HI's are paid to write a list so they do. Sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Something similar is when Joe Homeowner goes to Home Improvement Store and gets advice on electrical work that fails inspection because it doesn't meet code. Should the Guy at the store be licensed to give free advice? I think so.

 

[Cold Fusion]

... Should the Guy at the store be licensed to give free advice? I think so.

JMGO - I don't. If the DIY/HO is dumb enough to accept a clerk's advice, it should be painful/expensive.

For those that suggest that the DIY's children should not be subject to this danger:
This same DIY fixes their own pickup brakes and then takes off down the freeway with a 1T, towing 13,000lbs of RV, at 70mph. I don't here anybody condeming that one.

cf

 

[WDeanN]

...
This same DIY fixes their own pickup brakes and then takes off down the freeway with a 1T, towing 13,000lbs of RV, at 70mph. I don't here anybody condeming that one.

cf

That's only because this is an electrical forum, not a mechanics forum.

Besides, we all know that electricians are perfectly capable and qualified to perform mechanical work on their vehicles.
But no mechanic is qualified to perform electrical work on their house.

Let's talk about requiring certification and licensing by DOT to change the oil in your car, or to advise your neighbor that the air in his tires is low... :roll:

 

[charlietuna]

pfalcon,
"Your widow should have invested $300 not $5000 up front. She is not required to repair on a rumor. But if she is selling a house that an HI flagged with an issue then she has the choice (1) Fix it without a professional opinion for $5000 or (2) Get it professionally inspected for $300 which might lead to $5000 in repairs if it's required."

Your missing the point here. You can find a reason for anything and continue to justify "misinformation" provided by someone who is being payed to provide proper "information". No different than a local car repair telling a customer they need a complete brake job when it didn't ! But that can be justified by blaming the customer for not getting a second opinion on the brakes. Either the buyer, or the seller is paying someone to evaluate the condition of a house, and expects a professional evaluation, not "an opinion" or "a guess". Usually, this person is recommended by the realtor who the buyer or seller knows little about. My customers expect me to install electrical work according to the code--not my "best guess" or "my best opinion" to what i think the code "should" be! It is my responsibility as a businessman to provide my customers accurate and honest information to allow them to make a valued decision. Lets face it, house wiring is about as basic as we get involved in -- very little goes wrong with it if it's installed correctly. Where the problems come in is when "additions" and "do it yourselfers" get involved. How did this country get along for a hundred or more years with out the use of "Housing Inspectors"? Did "housing" electrical systems get anymore complicated? I have no axe to grind with the HI's concerning them doing electrical work while they inspect. But as i posted, many of them do the repairs themselves, and it's an easy fix for the buyer or the seller. I don't do residential, but the times i have been asked by my customers or friends to make residential repairs concerning HI's reports i would say 90 percent of the time the report was in error. Now i guess it could be the area i'm in, but 90% not acceptable to me. I think they are not educated enough to evaluate what they are inspecting. The above comments by some of them prove my point. Aluminum wire is not against the code -- they should know this! Now they may not like aluminum wire, probably because they heard bad things about aluminum conductors. But an educated electrician knows there is nothing wrong with it provided it is engineered correctly and installed properly. That being the case, that HI had no reason to mention that in his report to that 85 year old widow. This woman lived in that house for 20 years and never had the first problem. Same thing goes with the FPE and Zinsco "rumor" issue. These are all opinions and many are formed from there mini-classes on HI education. An "OLD" code instructor once told us "it's easier to understand the code if you know "why" any particular rule is writen". To me, it isn't that hard to train someone what to look for in residential installation, but at the same time someone needs to train them on where their "inspection job" stops. And some just seem to write something just to justify their "fee"? I don't see where they are needed for electricl systems, but if they are used i hope at least they provide proper information, not an educated guess.

 

[electricmanscott]

Well, this is not going to make me very popular, but let me see if I can sum up the argument here...

You are upset because someone else is "doing work," and someone else is paying for it, and you think that "work" belongs to you.
So, because you are unable to convince the homeowners, the realtors, or the insurance companies, on your own, that you are more qualified to do the work, you want to use someone else's money (taxpayers) and the police power of the state to require the homeowner to pay YOU, and not THEM, to do this work, which you would charge more for than the other party.

Did I get this right? :-?

Thats the way I see it too. I asked several pages ago why this is "our" work and nobody else can do it.

This attitude that we are entitled to certain work is just annoying. If YOU want the work go out and get it but don't cry about somebody else who is also going out and getting it to.

Most importantly a home inspector is not performing electrical work in the first place regardless of the spin that's being put on it here.

 

[cschmid]

Thats the way I see it too. I asked several pages ago why this is "our" work and nobody else can do it.

This attitude that we are entitled to certain work is just annoying. If YOU want the work go out and get it but don't cry about somebody else who is also going out and getting it to.

Most importantly a home inspector is not performing electrical work in the first place regardless of the spin that's being put on it here.

That is your view but why not answer the questions. I have no attitude about what I am entitled to..What I am saying is a week end course does not entitle you to remove the panel face. How does that make a HI qualified to be in a live panel?

So what do you clasify as licensed electrical work? can anyone plan and layput electrical? is just construction electrical need licenseing? how about repair work what and when does a licensed electricain need to be called?

let me read your thoughts on the issue when is a licensed electricain necessary?

 

[cschmid]

pfalcon,
"Your widow should have invested $300 not $5000 up front. She is not required to repair on a rumor. But if she is selling a house that an HI flagged with an issue then she has the choice (1) Fix it without a professional opinion for $5000 or (2) Get it professionally inspected for $300 which might lead to $5000 in repairs if it's required."

Your missing the point here. You can find a reason for anything and continue to justify "misinformation" provided by someone who is being payed to provide proper "information". No different than a local car repair telling a customer they need a complete brake job when it didn't ! But that can be justified by blaming the customer for not getting a second opinion on the brakes. Either the buyer, or the seller is paying someone to evaluate the condition of a house, and expects a professional evaluation, not "an opinion" or "a guess". Usually, this person is recommended by the realtor who the buyer or seller knows little about. My customers expect me to install electrical work according to the code--not my "best guess" or "my best opinion" to what i think the code "should" be! It is my responsibility as a businessman to provide my customers accurate and honest information to allow them to make a valued decision. Lets face it, house wiring is about as basic as we get involved in -- very little goes wrong with it if it's installed correctly. Where the problems come in is when "additions" and "do it yourselfers" get involved. How did this country get along for a hundred or more years with out the use of "Housing Inspectors"? Did "housing" electrical systems get anymore complicated? I have no axe to grind with the HI's concerning them doing electrical work while they inspect. But as i posted, many of them do the repairs themselves, and it's an easy fix for the buyer or the seller. I don't do residential, but the times i have been asked by my customers or friends to make residential repairs concerning HI's reports i would say 90 percent of the time the report was in error. Now i guess it could be the area i'm in, but 90% not acceptable to me. I think they are not educated enough to evaluate what they are inspecting. The above comments by some of them prove my point. Aluminum wire is not against the code -- they should know this! Now they may not like aluminum wire, probably because they heard bad things about aluminum conductors. But an educated electrician knows there is nothing wrong with it provided it is engineered correctly and installed properly. That being the case, that HI had no reason to mention that in his report to that 85 year old widow. This woman lived in that house for 20 years and never had the first problem. Same thing goes with the FPE and Zinsco "rumor" issue. These are all opinions and many are formed from there mini-classes on HI education. An "OLD" code instructor once told us "it's easier to understand the code if you know "why" any particular rule is writen". To me, it isn't that hard to train someone what to look for in residential installation, but at the same time someone needs to train them on where their "inspection job" stops. And some just seem to write something just to justify their "fee"? I don't see where they are needed for electricl systems, but if they are used i hope at least they provide proper information, not an educated guess.

what is the average service call per hour now? I do not know about you guys but every year I have my furance and ac system serviced and inspected costs me one hour service call. Good licensed contractor in an hour can give you a summary of the condition of your house. In an hour a good licensed electricain can give you a summary of your electrical system. total cost is not 350 dollars and it is done by professionals. I know of no lender or insurance company that requirs Home inspections.

It is funny how I started with HI as an example and no one answers my questions on where you you draw the line on what is licensed electrical work..Because I do not know how a unqualified individual is allowed in a live panel..a person who is not qualified to be there and qualified does not always mean licensed. But OSHA does state what qualified is..I will look it up and post it for this discussion.

 

[electricmanscott]

That is your view but why not answer the questions. I have no attitude about what I am entitled to..What I am saying is a week end course does not entitle you to remove the panel face. How does that make a HI qualified to be in a live panel?

I have no problem with somebody taking a weekend course instructing them on how to remove a panel cover. I could teach it in 10 minutes. It's a circuit breaker panel not a jet turbine on the side of a 747. :roll:

So what do you clasify as licensed electrical work? can anyone plan and layput electrical? is just construction electrical need licenseing? how about repair work what and when does a licensed electricain need to be called?

When you are actually performing work on electrical equipment ,not just looking at electrical equipment then perhaps a little more training would be wise.

let me read your thoughts on the issue when is a licensed electricain necessary?

I can tell you when one is not necessary... A home inspection for the purpose of a real estate transaction.

 

[electricmanscott]

.Because I do not know how a unlicensed individual is allowed in a live panel..a person who is not qualified to be there and qualified does not always mean licensed. But OSHA does state what qualified is..I will look it up and post it for this discussion.

If you think a license is the answer you are grossly misinformed.

 

[cschmid]

If you think a license is the answer you are grossly misinformed.

I had to change the sentance after I re read it and edited it to say qualified not licensed because you are correct licensed does not mean qualified..

 

[riggenbw]

I have to agree with cschmid

Home Inspectors give prospective home buyers either a false sense of
security, or deluge them with picayune items that shouldn't even be mentioned. I think they should be abolished altogether.

 

[aaronm]

Eschmid: Talking trash about home inspectors is tantamount to inspectors dissing electricians: a zero-sum activity at best. Since you do not know all home inspectors it is a bit of a leap for you to judge them all based solely upon your limited experiences.

I won't belabor the point or attempt to educate you where others have falied, but will simply leave you to bask in the unbreachable serenity of your ignoarance.

 

[ty]

I won't belabor the point or attempt to educate you where others have falied, but will simply leave you to bask in the unbreachable serenity of your ignoarance.

LOL! This sounds exactly what the CEO of EZ Energy told me on a phone call yesterday when I told him I saw absolutely no benefit of his 80 microfarad capacitor box installed in a home to correct power factor.

his exact words were, "you engineers and electricians with engineering experience want to wrap your brains around things so tight you just don't see how things really work" LOL!!!!!!

Just another company (from Stow, MA) that wants to sell me smoke in a box.

 

[pfalcon]

Again, shortened for brevity.

... That is what it should be like every where..I noticed that their are few things that do not seem to be normal and should have the attention of a professional.
... If an HI writes in a report that your panel is a fire hazard and needs a new one, I believe he has stepped over the line as he has no license or is not qualified to do that.

That's the point of the HI. He is supposed to be pointing out where you need the attention of a professional.

And yes, if he says I must replace a panel he has stepped over the line. But so what? To replace a panel I call an electrician not a home inspector. The electrician should then look at the panel to give me an estimate and a professional opinion. Think about it. If I call you out to replace an FPE panel and you determine the panel is fine - are you gonna withhold that information to make a buck? Charge me $50 for the inspection and give me a written statement that the HI finding is unfounded.

...how is he qualified.. So he writes report and prospective buyer looks at it and then tours your home while your not there... the prospective buyer just say to him self na I am not interested and walks off..Why is the report allowed...

...So why do you not tell me what you classify as electrical work?? ...

Lol. He isn't qualified. That's why I can afford him for a home inspection. As to the buyer walking away because of his report - Stupid HI combined with Stupid buyer equal no sale. Go figure. My HI will flag potential problems. If I care to pursue the purchase then I will have that system professionally inspected. If not then I'll walk away. It's a dollar issue at that point. Is that house worth paying for the inspection? If I don't want it that badly then I walk. If I do then I present the report to the seller and ask for either remediation or proof of compliance. Either is good enough. If they want to hire an electrician to inspect then more power to them. I'll accept the EL report over the HI report any day.

HI inspection is not electrical work. An HI opinion on how to fix it should be ignored. The point is if it got flagged then you should decide if you then want it professionally inspected at a higher price.

... Your missing the point here. You can find a reason for anything and continue to justify "misinformation" provided by someone who is being payed to provide proper "information". No different than a local car repair telling a customer they need a complete brake job when it didn't ! ...

Sorry Charlie, but you're actually a point behind. A car dealership is a professional organization that should render professional advice. An HI is a methodical problem flagger that sends you to a professional to get advice.

I don't care what the HI recommendation for fixing something is. He's not a professional at that job so I ignore his opinion. All I care is that the item was flagged and therefore needs a more thorough inspection by a real professional.

That's the real point. The only real information an HI provides is that you should have a particular system looked at by the appropriate professional. That system may or may not have a real problem.

... In an hour a good licensed electricain can give you a summary of your electrical system. total cost is not 350 dollars and it is done by professionals.
... and no one answers my questions on where you you draw the line on what is licensed electrical work..Because I do not know how a unqualified individual is allowed in a live panel...

And up to $350 is exactly why the HI is used. Because for that price he also inspected the attic, the roof, the water heater, the furnace, the framing, the air conditioner, and numerous other systems. If and only if he flags something electrical will I consider you.

Let's say the HI flagged the GFCI circuits for the kitchen. I present that to the seller. If they show me the breaker or a report from an electrician then it's resolved. If they can't then they can hire an electrician to inspect and/or fix the issue. Their choice. -- And note that I said flagged the GFCI circuits. I don't care what the HI fix is. We went beyond him the moment he flagged the circuits. I want a clean bill of health from an electrician or other obvious proof the problem is resolved. The seller doesn't have to fix what ain't broke - they just have to provide substantiation that it ain't broke.

I've drawn the line for electrical work. The HI inspects and flags issues. He does not recommend to me nor does he repair. Therefore he does no electrical work.