Home inspections

[rsole]

Sorry Resole, you are posting more misinformation. I have lived in Florida since 1952 and owned six houses, built four of them myself and have never had an insurance company come inside EXCEPT for CITIZENS when they estimated the damage from Hurricane Wilma ($78,000.00 worth). The house i recently built(2007), is insured by State Farm, which was 40% cheaper than Citizen's price, and the policy was bought over the phone without a representative ever coming out ! Only questions were about the structure,roof,square feet. I had Citizens Insurance in my last house for 14 years, they were a "STATE POOL INSURANCE COMPANY" due to all the companies pulling out after hurricane Andrew. They never asked nor looked at my last house. There are hundreds of thousands homes in Florida with FPE and Zinsco service equipment operating every day without a problem. If there was a REAL problem with their equipment it would have been re-called like the FPE commercial breakers were back in the eighties.

I am a certified infrared thermographer, been in this business since 1989 doing commercial buildings and you would be suprised at the number of buildings operating on FPE and Zinsco gear. And i can honestly say they have about the same number of problems as other manufacturers. If your in the trade long enough, you'll see they all have their problems.

Charlietuna, I do not want to get in a p___ing match here, but it you who are misinformed. I have been doing 4 Point inspections for several years. For quite a while the insurance companies required them on almost any home over 20 years old. Many have backed off on that and are now not requiring them until the home is 30 to 40 years old, depending on the insurance company. Some make it optional on home 20 to 30 years old but will give a better rate if they have the inspection report and it doesn't show the items they are concerned about.

In order for me to answer the questions the insurance company wants, I have to get on the roof, into the attic, open the electrical panels and get the age and condition of the water heater and air conditioning components. As I said there are inspectors who do not do what they are supposed to and you might find some who will fill out the report without checking the things they should. If I do an inspection, I do my best to do what I am supposed to do.

If you think I am wrong, call an insurance agent and tell them that you are buying a home that was built in 1952 and need insurance coverage. They are almost certainly going to tell that they can't even give you a quote until you give them a 4 Point inspection. If they give you a quote, they are not going to provide the coverage until they have the report.

 

[charlietuna]

This is not a Pi--ing contest, nor is it any reflection on you as a Home Inspector. As i stated, i believe you are probably one of the more professional HI's but again i am asking if anyone knows of actual writen information concerning the dangers of FPE or Zinsco equipment, i'd apprecieate information on it. This is not the first time we electricians have discussed it, but it never seems to go anywhere past it being a "RUMOR" ?

Iwire, i appreciate your input and comments about you wanting to know "every detail" of a non-issue -- but please put yourself in the place of the seller or the inexperienced widow. She must depend on the experience of a HI who is determining his opinion on a rumor. This cost her $5,000.00 !

Resole, your post starts at a 20 year old house and ends at a 58 year old house. My last house was 32 years old when i sold it -- only time an insurance representative(Citizens Insurance) was in it, was to estimate hurricane damage. During those 32 years i had three different companies insure it, none asked, nor cared the panel manufacturer. This house had Square D panels and breakers, but if i had selected FPE or Zinsco when building it, i wouldn't have changed a thing and slept fine. As long as it has a UL rating "AND IS APPROVED" is what counts for me. I have worked on many FPE and Zinsco installations, new installs and repairs, and never realized they were "outlawed" by insurance companies? I do know some friends who have this equipment installed in their homes and am still looking for information stating this equipment is not safe ! Please post so i can warn them of their situation. Thanks

 

[chris1971]

cschmid-

I agree HI's should be licensed. It's a joke in MN. Take a short course and you are suddenly an expert in Plumbing, electrical, HVAC and carpentry. I recently testified on a homeowners behalf because the HI missed some serious and odvious electrical problems.

 

[rsole]

Charlietuna

If I overreacted, I apologize but when someone accuses me of providing misinformation, I take it personally. I put a link to one of the best sites with information on the FPE and Zinsco panels in my previous post. There are a lot of others with information but inspectapedia has presented the information with a lot of research and pulls together the same info you have to go to several sites to get.

Part of the problem with what you just stated (that the panel is UL approved) is that the FPE panels (actually the biggest part of the problem was with the double pole breakers) received UL approval with doctored information. That was brought to light by Reliance Electric (who bought out FPE) in their financial statements in 1982. UL had "delisted" the breakers prior to that. So you are looking at an "approved" panel with breakers that are not approved. Don't know about you but that would make me feel nice and fuzzy.

The following is a report about a lawsuit in New Jersey.

"In a class-action lawsuit against FPE/Reliance in New Jersey, the Court found that Federal Pacific Electric Co. (FPE) committed fraud by representing that their FPE Stab-Lok(R) circuit breakers met the applicable (UL) standard test requirements when in fact they did not. The Court's finding of fraud, published in 2005, indicates that FPE cheated on the tests that were required to obtain UL listings. The company improperly applied UL labels to circuit breakers that could not and did not meet the UL requirements. FPE covered up the defective performance of the circuit breakers by a long-standing practice of fraudulent testing. The Court's finding helps resolve the question as to how the defective breakers got into the marketplace and into homes." -- 2007 FPE Stab-Lok TECHNICAL REPORT, p.1, Dr. Jess Aronstein [available at this website]."

As to the 4 Point inspections, I stand by what I said. If you read my post you will see that I mentioned that the insurance companies were previously requiring the inspections on homes older than 20 years but had softened their requirements. I said to call an insurance agent and say the you were buying a home built in 1952 (because that it the date you mentioned in your post).

By the way, anyone interested in the information, click on the link above and it will take you to the information on FPE panels. the site alos has information on aluminum wiring, Zinsco panels and much more.

 

[cschmid]

Sorry Resole, you are posting more misinformation. I have lived in Florida since 1952 and owned six houses, built four of them myself and have never had an insurance company come inside EXCEPT for CITIZENS when they estimated the damage from Hurricane Wilma ($78,000.00 worth). The house i recently built(2007), is insured by State Farm, which was 40% cheaper than Citizen's price, and the policy was bought over the phone without a representative ever coming out ! Only questions were about the structure,roof,square feet. I had Citizens Insurance in my last house for 14 years, they were a "STATE POOL INSURANCE COMPANY" due to all the companies pulling out after hurricane Andrew. They never asked nor looked at my last house. There are hundreds of thousands homes in Florida with FPE and Zinsco service equipment operating every day without a problem. If there was a REAL problem with their equipment it would have been re-called like the FPE commercial breakers were back in the eighties.

I am a certified infrared thermographer, been in this business since 1989 doing commercial buildings and you would be suprised at the number of buildings operating on FPE and Zinsco gear. And i can honestly say they have about the same number of problems as other manufacturers. If your in the trade long enough, you'll see they all have their problems.

I agree that the FPE and Zinsco gear is fine until you got Joe home owner or handy manny doing electrical work and install junk that does not match the panel. I have work where there are severl hundreds of these panels working fine. i have exercised the breakers and no problem.

cschmid-

I agree HI's should be licensed. It's a joke in MN. Take a short course and you are suddenly an expert in Plumbing, electrical, HVAC and carpentry. I recently testified on a homeowners behalf because the HI missed some serious and odvious electrical problems.

That is my point here..anybody can be an HI and with just couple of weekends they are masters in the home inspection industry..When most do not even know the difference between decora and gfci..

Charlietuna

If I overreacted, I apologize but when someone accuses me of providing misinformation, I take it personally. I put a link to one of the best sites with information on the FPE and Zinsco panels in my previous post. There are a lot of others with information but inspectapedia has presented the information with a lot of research and pulls together the same info you have to go to several sites to get.

Part of the problem with what you just stated (that the panel is UL approved) is that the FPE panels (actually the biggest part of the problem was with the double pole breakers) received UL approval with doctored information. That was brought to light by Reliance Electric (who bought out FPE) in their financial statements in 1982. UL had "delisted" the breakers prior to that. So you are looking at an "approved" panel with breakers that are not approved. Don't know about you but that would make me feel nice and fuzzy.

The following is a report about a lawsuit in New Jersey.

"In a class-action lawsuit against FPE/Reliance in New Jersey, the Court found that Federal Pacific Electric Co. (FPE) committed fraud by representing that their FPE Stab-Lok(R) circuit breakers met the applicable (UL) standard test requirements when in fact they did not. The Court's finding of fraud, published in 2005, indicates that FPE cheated on the tests that were required to obtain UL listings. The company improperly applied UL labels to circuit breakers that could not and did not meet the UL requirements. FPE covered up the defective performance of the circuit breakers by a long-standing practice of fraudulent testing. The Court's finding helps resolve the question as to how the defective breakers got into the marketplace and into homes." -- 2007 FPE Stab-Lok TECHNICAL REPORT, p.1, Dr. Jess Aronstein [available at this website]."

As to the 4 Point inspections, I stand by what I said. If you read my post you will see that I mentioned that the insurance companies were previously requiring the inspections on homes older than 20 years but had softened their requirements. I said to call an insurance agent and say the you were buying a home built in 1952 (because that it the date you mentioned in your post).

By the way, anyone interested in the information, click on the link above and it will take you to the information on FPE panels. the site alos has information on aluminum wiring, Zinsco panels and much more.

I will check out the link and see where it takes me

I am still back at what is electrical work limits? If we can not even reach a common ground how am I suppose to lobby for change if I do not know how others feel. My opinion is not always correct.

 

[JFletcher]

I am still back at what is electrical work limits? If we can not even reach a common ground how am I suppose to lobby for change if I do not know how others feel. My opinion is not always correct.

326B.31 DEFINITIONS
Subd. 17. Electrical work. "Electrical work" means the installing, altering, repairing, planning, or laying out of electrical wiring, apparatus, or equipment for electrical light, heat, power, technology circuits or systems, or other purposes.

Inspecting is not listed in that definition of electrical work, so imo a HI in MN does not need to be an electrician. Should he be well trained? yes - a program like what Bob posted back on page 1.

If HIs were required to master every trade whose work they inspect, they'd be in school over 10 years. There has to be some middleground between that and taking a few weekend courses to be a "pro".

 

[charlietuna]

Having read a good portion, but not the entire report posted by "inspectapedia" i find the report, in my opinion, laughable!! Nothing official ! No comparisons to other products or manufacturers. Comparing having "any" FPE circuit breaker, as to an "Edison fuse with a penny behind it" is going too far! This is an unofficial site that, in my opinion, is a typical cause that educates "home Inspectors" in the wrong direction. Come on guys ! I have personnelly witnessed a "Square D" 2 pole fourty amp breaker carrying 100 amps continuously ! That doesn't mean ever Square D breaker is an Edison fuse with a penny behind it !!! This is the problem with the entire "HOME INSPECTOR" trade - NO CONTROL. This is a new "trade" and i use that word lightly! More so a "job discription".

What i relate this to is like having a certain electrical inspector with certain pet peaves. Certain things he has educated himself on, or been educated on, and "inspects" those specific items or areas! We have all seen this! We had an inspector who had his arm blown off in a high voltage accident --his pet peave was strapping ! "Just make sure everything is secure and your fine" -- he would shake all the raceways with his hook ! Others would concentrate on grounding--etc,etc..

The listed webb site does not hold water. FPE and Zinsco are still UL listed and approved. Questionable --- maybe ?? Anybody have "OFFICIAL" information outlawing these manufacturers?? Please post !

 

[cowboyjwc]

Here we have tract's with Zinsco panels and we also have tract's with aluminum wiring, we also have tract's (mostly the ones with Zinsco panels) that have no main breakers.

From time to time I get a call and if I get one I will get three within the week (just works that way it seems), telling me that an HI told them that it needed to be replaced. The reason I bring up the main breakers is because they are not required in existing residential services, but even a lot of inspectors don't know that one.

I've been with the city for 20 years and I have no more problems with the houses I mentioned than with any other houses in town, but then we don't have that many electrical fires and would probably have less, but the arson inspector doesn't call me out any more since I kept debating his findings.

I also do home inspections (just electrical) from time to time, "non issue" shouldn't sound as bad as it does. I will usually pull the address file and find out when the house was built, then do my inspection according to that and any new work that's been done. So something like GFCI for the kitchen counters not being there is a "non issue" if the house was built in 1960 and nothing has been touched. Two prong recepts if the house was built in the 50's.

Here in CA you are required to have anti suction devices on the pool drain, that's great,but you can't require it on a pool that was built 20 years ago.

A good HI should not only know what to look for, but what's required.

 

[cschmid]

Charlietune here we go inspector statutes

326B.36 INSPECTION.
Subdivision 1. Required inspection. Except where any political subdivision has by ordinance provided for
electrical inspection similar to that herein provided, every new electrical installation in any construction,
remodeling, replacement, or repair, except minor repair work as the same is defined by rule, shall be
inspected by the commissioner for compliance with accepted standards of construction for safety to life
and property.

(c) For the purposes of this subdivision "minor work" means the adjustment or repair and replacement of
worn or defective parts of a technology circuit or system. Minor work may be inspected under this section
at the request of the owner of the property or the person doing the work.
(d) Notwithstanding this subdivision, if an electrical inspector observes that a contractor, employer, or
owner has not complied with accepted standards when the work was performed, as provided in the most
recent editions of the National Electrical Code and the National Electrical Safety Code as approved by
the American National Standards Institute, the inspector may order the contractor, employer, or owner
who has performed the work to file a request for electrical inspection, pay an inspection fee, and make
any necessary repairs to comply with applicable standards and require that the work be inspected.

Subd. 3. Licenses; bond. All inspectors shall hold licenses as master or journeyman electricians under
this chapter. All inspectors under contract with the department to provide electrical inspection services
shall give bond in the amount of $1,000, conditioned upon the faithful performance of their duties.
Subd. 4. Procedure. (a) At or before commencement of any installation required to be inspected by the
commissioner, the contractor, installer, special electrician, or owner making the installation shall submit
to the commissioner a request for inspection, in a form prescribed by the commissioner, together with the
fees required for the installation.

Some good night reading..

 

[roger]

Cs, that is for code enforcement inspectors and new projects (including renovatons), how does that tie into a HI making an observation?

Roger

 

[cschmid]

roger I was just posting for charlietuna to read what is required of a person to inspect electrical work..our state defines what minor electrical work is..

I am still trying to define what is and is not electrical work..Home inspectors do not inspect electrical construction of any sort. But they do accept cash for electrical work in my opinion.

326B.31 DEFINITIONS

Subd. 17. Electrical work. "Electrical work" means the installing, altering, repairing, planning, or laying out
of electrical wiring, apparatus, or equipment for electrical light, heat, power, technology circuits or
systems, or other purposes. The installing, altering, repairing, planning, or laying out of electrical wiring,
apparatus, or equipment for electrical light, heat, power, technology circuits or systems, or other
purposes includes, but is not limited to, the performance of any work regulated by the standards referred
to in section 326B.35.

326B.35 SAFETY STANDARDS.
All electrical wiring, apparatus and equipment for electrical light, heat and power, technology circuits or
systems shall comply with the rules of the department and the board and be installed in conformity with
accepted standards of construction for safety to life and property. For the purposes of this chapter, the
rules and safety standards stated at the time the work is done in the then most current edition of the
National Electrical Code as adopted by the National Fire Protection Association, Inc. and approved by
the American National Standards Institute, and the National Electrical Safety Code as published by the
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. and approved by the American National Standards
Institute, shall be prima facie evidence of accepted standards of construction for safety to life and
property; provided further, that in the event a Minnesota Building Code is formulated pursuant to section
326B.106, containing approved methods of electrical construction for safety to life and property,
compliance with said methods of electrical construction of said Minnesota Building Code shall also
constitute compliance with this section, and provided further, that nothing herein contained shall prohibit
any political subdivision from making and enforcing more stringent requirements than set forth herein and
such requirements shall be complied with by all licensed electricians working within the jurisdiction of
such political subdivisions.


Now I know that a home inspector is not making inspections of construction work but they are rendering solutions which I feel fall under planing for..and they are rendering opinions on 326B.35 which is regulated by the state and once you dip into this area then I feel you are doing electrical work. Like stating that a panel is not compliant then you are into the safety standard and to render a professional opinion you are now into a regulated area. So now you need a license. How is an HI qualified to tell me that a piece of electrical equipment is none compliant if he is not saying he is qualified in electrical safety standards. Now you are again in a regulated area and need to be licensed. So I still stand by my original statement that if you accept cash for electrical work you need to be licensed.

Edited to add one of the electrical work definition is "other
purposes includes, but is not limited to, the performance of any work regulated by the standards referred
to in section 326B.35."

 

[charlietuna]

Schmidy,
Those regulations refer to "electrical inspectors" in MN. I don't have a beef with them inspecting electrical installations across the country ! The biggest problem, is there is no oversite in their profession. How are they controlled ? Who corrects a HI who makes continuous mistakes? Who writes a report that causes major expenses to a homeowner or even a buyer ?

 

[cschmid]

All good points..I think the HI is doing our industry a disservice by dispersing bad information and causing unnecessary emotional and financial burdens..which have a probability to come back and haunt us with more regulations..

So if we as electricians are not going to police our own back yards then why all the regulations? who job is it to police our own work areas? What do you do when you know unlicensed people are performing electrical work? At what point do you classify someone doing electrical work? is it only when it takes food off your table or when do you call enough enough?

edited to add: Schmidy thank you that is what my friends call me..

 

[roger]

I think the HI is doing our industry a disservice by dispersing bad information
.

And many of us don't think that at all.

Roger

 

[cschmid]

that is why we call them personal opinions.:grin:

 

[roger]

that is why we call them personal opinions.:grin:

And until you get your state law makers to consider your personal opinion the status quo will remain the same.


Roger

 

[charlietuna]

Roger,
Are you following this post? Here we have people writing electrical system deficiencies on a report from "RUMORS" ? How is this profession policed?

 

[cschmid]

Roger,
Are you following this post? Here we have people writing electrical system deficiencies on a report from "RUMORS" ? How is this profession policed?

I agree and would someone tell me why we complain about handy manny doing side jobs and not about an up and coming profession doing shoddy work..

Again if I can get a consensus on what electrical work is by a bunch of professionals I would have a better definition to present my cause with. Which would be more clear and concise rules pertaining to HI,s in this state at least..

 

[roger]

Roger,
Are you following this post?

Absolutely and what I see is the whining continues. :grin:

Here we have people writing electrical system deficiencies on a report from "RUMORS" ?

And like I told Cs, until you can convince your lawmakers to change things you will continue to complain.

How is this profession policed?

I don't know how it works in Cs's and your state but in NC it is under the Office of the State Fire Marshal, sorry your states are not as regulated. :roll:

Roger

 

[iwire]

Again if I can get a consensus on what electrical work is by a bunch of professionals I would have a better definition to present my cause with. Which would be more clear and concise rules pertaining to HI,s in this state at least..

IMO the definition you want is self serving, not in the consumers interest or even remotely enforceable.