zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Working Hot
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zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Sorry, electrical hazards don't care what your job is or what training you have you need to evaluate the hazard level and wear the right PPE.
dmagyar
Senior Member
- Location
- Rocklin, Ca.
Proper Equipment
Proper Equipment
I guess it's like the addage "Never climb higher than you're willing to fall from". I heard that from a climbing buddy of mine. We've probably all worked on hot circuits, and in situations where with lots of skill and proper procedures (for the times) we made out OK. But it was also common practice to work on Picks 40' up in the "steel" without "scare straps" and the safety ropes & harnesses like we use today. After only 39 years in the trade I've purchased a set of complete flash protection equipment gear for my company, I'm not doing this because I'm not skilled enough to do it without, but now I'm a little smarter knowing who's going to be going through skin grafts and all that if anything goes wrong.
I openned a Zinsco panel where it wasn't apparent from looking at the dead front that it had been replaced in an incorrect fashion, but with an overhead meter the improperly installed dead front that was very close to shorting the incoming bus. After that when ever I'm going into some panel that I didn't install, it's on with the gear.
Like the gentleman recounted about the wall fixture exploding, it doesn't take a big mistake to mess up your future.
Proper Equipment
I guess it's like the addage "Never climb higher than you're willing to fall from". I heard that from a climbing buddy of mine. We've probably all worked on hot circuits, and in situations where with lots of skill and proper procedures (for the times) we made out OK. But it was also common practice to work on Picks 40' up in the "steel" without "scare straps" and the safety ropes & harnesses like we use today. After only 39 years in the trade I've purchased a set of complete flash protection equipment gear for my company, I'm not doing this because I'm not skilled enough to do it without, but now I'm a little smarter knowing who's going to be going through skin grafts and all that if anything goes wrong.
I openned a Zinsco panel where it wasn't apparent from looking at the dead front that it had been replaced in an incorrect fashion, but with an overhead meter the improperly installed dead front that was very close to shorting the incoming bus. After that when ever I'm going into some panel that I didn't install, it's on with the gear.
Like the gentleman recounted about the wall fixture exploding, it doesn't take a big mistake to mess up your future.
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Depends on the available fault current, cleariing time if the OCPD, voltage, type of equipment, etc....
A analysis is required to be done on your electrical equipment and labeled with the hazards levels or PPE required and your people need training,
Based on the question you asked here, you are not "qualified" per the NFPA 7)E or OSHA to be working on any electrical equipment.
marti smith
Senior Member
So as an industrial maintenance electrician, how do I make my employer understand electrical safety? I gave my boss a copy of 70E about three months ago (I knew he was in the process of re-writing all of the company's safety procedures), a week later he returned it and said, "could you go through this and write down all of the rules we have to follow, I don't have time to go through the whole thing."
My reply was that we are required to follow the whole thing, to which I just got a :-?.
I just came back from vacation yesterday to a stack of safety handouts on my desk. Eight pages about proper lifting, six pages about MSDS and another 20 or so about random items. I have to sign a "proof of receipt" report for every single page.Care to guess how many regarding electrical safety?
I think that the situation a maintenance elec is in is unique, at least it is at my employer and I'm sure there are others out there exactly the same:
1. I cannot convince my co-workers or superiors that hot work is unacceptable.
2. Although I may not be "officially punished" for shutting a production machine down for maintenance, I can guarantee you that I will be looked upon less favorably by my superiors.
3. I cannot afford to buy ALL of the neccessary PPE to work the equipment hot yet they will not purchase it for me/us. As far as they are concerned, a good pair of welding gloves is sufficient. I have purchased, out of my own pocket, voltage rated gloves and a FR jacket which I wear if neccessary.
4. I GUARANTEE you that if I was ever injured in an electrical accident, it would be looked at as my fault.
Do I have a choice, to work hot? Yes. Is it a choice that is easy as black and white? No.
We have untrained machine operators in MCC's all the time, resetting starters and other things of that nature. They are told to "do what you gotta do" to keep the machine running. They have no concept of what can happen, yet are completely willing to stick their hands and anything else in a panel with no regard. It's frustrating as heck but I have tried many times to stop people and have been told "I've been shocked before, it's no big deal."
What does one have to do to get the point across?
I find that an 8 hr day of accident videos drives it home very well!
It?s an evolutionary thing. At one time it was common to see old timers checking for voltage by touching a bus bar with the back of their hand. We younger guys saw no sense in that, as we had our high tec. wiggys for voltage testing. We used to work in manholes with a propane heater melting lead, and a gasoline generator running right nearby. Now we are aware of the dangers associated with confined space. We used to climb 1000 ft. TV and radio towers with no fall protection and laugh at those who suggested a safety belt. As awareness of NFPA 70-E, and an understanding of the potential consequence of a surprise while working hot increases, hot work will fade in to history. As older members of this trade look back, they?ll realize that in addition to being qualified and cautious, they?ve also been lucky.
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Well it is not my opinion, it is a requirement for the 70E snd OSHA. I have trainded hundredes of IBEW guys (Was one myself) and most of them had no idea of the hazards or how to assess them and were happy to finally have the training the IBEW never gave them. Now many locals offer 70E programs through the hall.
According to the NFPA 70E, a ?Qualified Person" is one who is trained and knowledgeable of the construction and operation of the equipment or the specific work method, and be trained to recognize the hazards present with respect to that equipment or work method.
Such persons shall also be familiar with the use of the precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools and test equipment. A person can be considered qualified with respect to certain tasks but still be unqualified for others.
An employee that is undergoing on the job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated the ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person shall be considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.
In addition, to be permitted to work within the limited approach of exposed energized conductors and circuit parts the person shall be trained in all of the following:
Qualified employees shall be trained and competent in:
The skills and techniques necessary to distinguish exposed live parts from other parts of electric equipment
The skills and techniques necessary to determine the nominal voltage of exposed live parts
The minimum approach distances specified in this section corresponding to the voltages to which the qualified employee will be exposed, and,
The decision making process necessary to determine the degree and extent of the hazard and the personal protective equipment and job planning necessary to perform the task safely
A few notes to add to the 70E definition.
Only the employer can deem an employee qualified after they have had the proper training and have demonstrated profinency using the skills and method learned.
There is no such thing as NFPA 70E certification, going to a training course does not make an employee qualified.
The most misunderstood part of the "qualified" term is that it is all emcompassing, you are "qualified" to work on a specific type or piece of equipment.
Neither a J-card, a masters license, or an engineering degree make you a "qualified person"
The word "electrician" is not anywhere in the definition of a "qualified person" meaning these rules apply to all employees and you dont have to be an electrician to be "qualified"
The problem is that there is no structure within the industry to insure that new processes, procedures, rules, requirements, etc, get communicated to all who are affected by them. I work for a large multinational corporation with an intense interest in safety, driven from the top. Our facility found out about 70-E early on via a couple of electricians attending a training class. That put us about 2 years ahead of the rest of the corporation on implementation. This forum serves a valuable function in helping to fill the industry information gap.
I called FPL to ask for an outage to connect a Xfer switch at a gas station. The owner wanted me to do it at night so that he would not have to shut his business down. Since it would only take ma about an hour, I asked if the trouble truck couldn't pull the cutouts and then come back later to turn them back on. FPL said their trouble truck might have to go on another call. I said no problem, I'll just run the gas station on the generator if that happens. They said no! I would have to pay them $1150 to call a crew out to do this at night. Greedy POCO. We did it during daytime for free.
quinn77
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake Jackson, TX USA
One might think something as simple as area lighting in a refinery might not be a big deal right? Actual story...
JE has been on unit wide area lighting project for some time now...at end of day he calls down to "tool buddy" to open breaker and lockout.( same breaker he had operated for task many times prior ) JE waits for thumbs up( only type 1 lockout required at the time) JE recieves thumbs up, kneels down on steel catwalk to reach hand into open 2" tee, and without physical verification of open circuit, reaches hand into conduit body to pull out conductors to tie in new lighting conductors. the lighting was 480, the unit was older, the sun was hot, and he was ready to go. This was the last wire he ever touched. The conductor insulation was in poor shape, and the tee was in an akward location. He left behind a wife and 4 kids for production's sake. Totally unacceptable. The refinery moves on...while many mourn the loss of a father, husband, and friend. I know this story because I was the JE that took his place at the refinery. Complaicency is our #1 killer as electricians. If it is not safe, make it safe or dont do it.
JE has been on unit wide area lighting project for some time now...at end of day he calls down to "tool buddy" to open breaker and lockout.( same breaker he had operated for task many times prior ) JE waits for thumbs up( only type 1 lockout required at the time) JE recieves thumbs up, kneels down on steel catwalk to reach hand into open 2" tee, and without physical verification of open circuit, reaches hand into conduit body to pull out conductors to tie in new lighting conductors. the lighting was 480, the unit was older, the sun was hot, and he was ready to go. This was the last wire he ever touched. The conductor insulation was in poor shape, and the tee was in an akward location. He left behind a wife and 4 kids for production's sake. Totally unacceptable. The refinery moves on...while many mourn the loss of a father, husband, and friend. I know this story because I was the JE that took his place at the refinery. Complaicency is our #1 killer as electricians. If it is not safe, make it safe or dont do it.
charlietuna
Senior Member
You need to understand the costs involved in providing a crew to standby a power outage for the average repair. Many years ago (25) they tried to work with contractors, but public utility commissions have cut this type of work out. Power companies operate on a bare bones after hour crews and even after paying for their services, there is no guarentee they will remain on site if they get busy due to accidents or storms. You call them "geedy"- - we all want low power bills and this is just part of the costs that would be shared by everyone !
RETRAINDAILY
Senior Member
- Location
- PHX, arizona
Are split bolts still legal on phase conductors?
me boss says only grounds.
me boss says only grounds.
That's a very sad story. Did you say that he didn't check that it was dead first, before he worked on it? That reminds me of a time I was working on a "Sky chef" job. I was going to do some splices in a power pole, and I was told the power was off. I'm glad I made sure first before I went in there, because it wasn't. I don't care who tells me the power's off, I check it anyway!
jwjrw
Senior Member
I hook up all the upfits we do at shopping centers. We cant cut power off to the other businesses. I dont like it but I wear linesman gloves rubber boots and am as careful as possible.
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
No, it is just not easy to cut power to other businesses. Thats what OSHA will say if an accident occurs.
What about FR clothing?
jwjrw
Senior Member
We dont worry about osha(we are under 5 employees) and I'm refering to a trough with 208 and 200a main. I just have to put my wires into the poco supplied polaras.
No I dont wear anything for arc flash in this situation.Maybe I should. I know it would be safer to kill power but in my case we are outside and able to make connections outside of trough and then fold into trough. All of the companys here that ive seen do it this way. It doesnt make it right just whats done.
No I dont wear anything for arc flash in this situation.Maybe I should. I know it would be safer to kill power but in my case we are outside and able to make connections outside of trough and then fold into trough. All of the companys here that ive seen do it this way. It doesnt make it right just whats done.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Try watching a few of the videos on this site:
http://www.westexinc.com/flash_video/westex.html
They'll make you think twice about the FR clothing.
Mark
- Status