Use of watertight hubs

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

There IS an engineer, with the power to reject an installation. This tells me this is no ordinary NEC installation and the hubs are most likely required.

 

[infinity]

Where in 312.2 does it say you don't have to use a wet-location listed connector in the bottom. Sure it says you have to use one above the lowest level of uninsulated live parts, but it doesn't say you don't have to use one at or below that level, does it?

Logical deduction (in other words, it is implied) by that section that wet-listed connectors are not required at or below that level, but only when you isolate that section as an only requirement. Yet it is not the only requirement that applies. Bottom of a meter enclosure outside is no less than a damp location. 314.15 would apply to fittings used there.

It says what it says, above uninsulated the live parts. There is no requirement, written, implied or otherwise in 312.2 for a wet location connector below the live parts in a meter enclosure.

312.2 Damp and Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (?-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations

This has been SOP for 50 years around here, standard SE squeeze connector out of the bottom of a meter enclosure.

 

[Smart $]

It says what it says, above uninsulated the live parts. There is no requirement, written, implied or otherwise in 312.2 for a wet location connector below the live parts in a meter enclosure.

This has been SOP for 50 years around here, standard SE squeeze connector out of the bottom of a meter enclosure.

You are doing exactly what I said... isolating the installtion to a single requirement. I have no problem with what 312.2 says, and I cannot contest SOP, compliant or not.

But when you open your installation to all requirements that apply, that includes...

314.15 Damp or Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Last time I checked, moisture penetration is omnidirectional. It is not limited to the gravity-influenced run-off effect as is amassed liquid water, such as rain. Additionally, there is no exception which mimics the stipulations of 312.2.

SOP, compliant or not, even including the requirements of 314.15, is beyond my control.

 

[infinity]

You are doing exactly what I said... isolating the installtion to a single requirement. I have no problem with what 312.2 says, and I cannot contest SOP, compliant or not.

But when you open your installation to all requirements that apply, that includes...

​

Last time I checked, moisture penetration is omnidirectional. It is not limited to the gravity-influenced run-off effect as is amassed liquid water, such as rain. Additionally, there is no exception which mimics the stipulations of 312.2.

SOP, compliant or not, even including the requirements of 314.15, is beyond my control.

You're attempting to apply the requirements for boxes [Article 314] to the requirements for Cabinets, Cutout Boxes and Meter Socket Enclosures [Article 312]. They're not the same thing.

 

[danger30]

That's how I see it. Just wanted to throw that out there.:grin:

 

[Mgraw]

As the OP stated this is a junction box. 314.15 applies. 312.2 does not. Engineering requirements or not fitting need to be listed for wet locations.

 

[Smart $]

You're attempting to apply the requirements for boxes [Article 314] to the requirements for Cabinets, Cutout Boxes and Meter Socket Enclosures [Article 312]. They're not the same thing.

The requirements of 314.15 applies equally to fittings also, without regard for their function. In addition to fittings included in listed items, fittings is a listed item in Article 314 title.

 

[iwire]

The requirements of 314.15 applies equally to fittings also, without regard for their function. In addition to fittings included in listed items, fittings is a listed item in Article 314 title.

IMO 314.15 only applies to fittings used with enclosures in the scope of 314.

 

[Smart $]

IMO 314.15 only applies to fittings used with enclosures in the scope of 314.

Perhaps the intent is as you say, and I would agree if the section was actually worded that way... but it is not.

The predicate of the first sentence uses the conjunction "or" in listing direct objects, meaning the action clause applies equally to each item. In summary, it applies wherever used in a damp or wet location, with no other constraints.

 

[iwire]

The predicate of the first sentence uses the conjunction "or" in listing direct objects, meaning the action clause applies equally to each item. In summary, it applies wherever used in a damp or wet location, with no other constraints.

In your opinion.


I do not see it that way.

Read the last sentence of 314.1, the requirements for fittings are limited to 'boxes and conduit bodies' that IMO puts cabinets out of reach.

 

[Smart $]

...

Read the last sentence of 314.1, the requirements for fittings are limited to 'boxes and conduit bodies' that IMO puts cabinets out of reach.

You forgot part of it. The last sentence also states "...fittings used to join raceways..."

What fitting would you typically use to join a conduit raceway to a wireway?

Are cabinets permitted to be used [coincidentally] as a "raceway"? Granted on this, the cabinet is not deemed or considered per se a raceway, but the connector fittings would be considered as used to join raceways.

I have the feeling you are going respond by saying the fittings that join raceways (note plural usage) are couplings... but a raceway (singular) is required to be installed in its entirety, so a coupling, though it is a fitting, is part of the raceway (singular), not joining raceways (plural).

Then we also have to go back to 312.2. With the exception of the airspace clause, its first sentence is almost identical to that of 314.15.

312.2 Damp and Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. ...

Now mind you, the last sentence of 312.2, "For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations.", does not negate the requirement in the first sentence to "prevent moisture... from entering... the cabinet or cutout box..." So tell me, how does one go about preventing moisture from entering the cabinet or cut-out box for raceway and cable entries?

 

[elohr46]

IMO the latter. You can come out of the bottom of a meter enclosure with a standard fitting such as a squeeze type SE connector.

I agree.

It says what it says, above uninsulated the live parts. There is no requirement, written, implied or otherwise in 312.2 for a wet location connector below the live parts in a meter enclosure.



This has been SOP for 50 years around here, standard SE squeeze connector out of the bottom of a meter enclosure.

I agree.

You're attempting to apply the requirements for boxes [Article 314] to the requirements for Cabinets, Cutout Boxes and Meter Socket Enclosures [Article 312]. They're not the same thing.

I agree.

IMO 314.15 only applies to fittings used with enclosures in the scope of 314.

I agree.

In your opinion.


I do not see it that way.

Read the last sentence of 314.1, the requirements for fittings are limited to 'boxes and conduit bodies' that IMO puts cabinets out of reach.

I agree. Art. 312 and 314 are not to be combined or criss-crossed into one article.

 

[iwire]

You forgot part of it. The last sentence also states "...fittings used to join raceways..."

I did not forget, it is not relevant.

The NEC has specific rules for cabinets and meter socket enclosures and while we are allowed to use them as raceways they are not listed as raceways. 314 does not apply.

I have the feeling you are going respond by saying the fittings that join raceways (note plural usage) are couplings... but a raceway (singular) is required to be installed in its entirety, so a coupling, though it is a fitting, is part of the raceway (singular), not joining raceways (plural).

No, I am going to say you are really reaching and I do not see it the way you do.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Smart,
I see a big difference in the rules found in 312.12 and 314.15. In 312 we have to prevent the water of moisture from entering and accumulating in the enclosure. In 314 we have to prevent the water or moisture from entering or accumulating. In 312 the water or moisture is allowed to enter as long as you don't let it accumulate...the very reason for the drain holes in a NEMA 3R enclosure. In 314 we have to prevent both the entry and accumulation of the water or moisture....I wonder why they make NEMA 3R junction boxes as under this rule there would never be a need for a drain hole in an Article 314 application. I guess maybe that many junction boxes and all 3R boxes are really cutout boxes and only the rules in 312 apply to them.

 

[Smart $]

I did not forget, it is not relevant.

The NEC has specific rules for cabinets and meter socket enclosures and while we are allowed to use them as raceways they are not listed as raceways. 314 does not apply.

No, I am going to say you are really reaching and I do not see it the way you do.

It makes no difference to me. My argument isn't about which article applies... it's about what type of connector is required to be used. As mentioned in my last post, the wording of 312.2, which even by your way of seeing it, is the specific rules regarding cabinets, meter socket enclosures, and cut-out boxes. Its damp and wet location requirement is essentially the same as for boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings.

Fittings used to connect to cabinets et al, must fall under either 312.2 or 314. If you say 314 don't apply, that's fine with me because 312.2 does then. Per its first sentence, how do you prevent moisture from entering via cable and conduit entries?

 

[iwire]

how do you prevent moisture from entering via cable and conduit entries?

I don't or at least I am not required to.

 

[Smart $]

... In 312 we have to prevent the water of moisture from entering and accumulating in the enclosure.

Ding ding ding... and the light goes on. My brain, for who knows what reason (I know I certainly don't know ???) has been substituting or for and every time I read 312.2... and yes, it made that big of a difference.

... In 314 we have to prevent both the entry and accumulation of the water or moisture....I wonder why they make NEMA 3R junction boxes as under this rule there would never be a need for a drain hole in an Article 314 application. I guess maybe that many junction boxes and all 3R boxes are really cutout boxes and only the rules in 312 apply to them.

Yes, this is probably where my Code logic went haywire. Requirements in this regard for JB's and such are more stringent than for cabinets, meter enclosures, and cut-out boxes. It don't compute from a practical, logical standpoint.