You Make The Call

[walkerj]

I do not see this as getting out of work.

I hate leaving a black white and green at rough-in and coming back to find three whites at trim-out.

 

[kwired]

Inspectors can not be there to see everything you do. Or we would need one inspector for every two or three installers at the very least.

Rough in inspection is for inspecting items that will be covered and will not be able to be inspected later without damaging building finish. If the inspector wants to see if the box is grounded then he can remove the cover and look if he still can't see then he will have to remove the receptacle. There are other possible violations he could find while doing this, but some of you are saying all he should care about is if the box is grounded?

If there are several of these and he randomly opens a couple of them and finds nothing wrong then why look at all of them?

 

[iwire]

OK for the sake of argument what is the inspector even looking for at this box?

IMO without the grounds made up there is nothing to inspect.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Wouldn't have been much use here, it's a SIP wall.


Or, he might see all the boxes stripped out on the interior and put two and two together, but that is probably asking too much.

I agree and this 2 + 2 = 3 1/2
If he could do the others why not this one.
Lets have it George, did you simply forgot to do it ? If i was the inspector and that was only violation i would leave a note and i might check on trim. But if i was going by the book i could tag it. Not a biggy.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

The thing of it is,

there is no code that says the grounds have to be made up at time of rough in. EVERYBODY, including myself, make them up because this is the ONLY time an inspector could see it.

If an inspector REALLY wanted to be an pain, he could pass a rough with NO GROUNDS MADE UP , in any box, for an entire house, ,,,,,then he would make a sidenote on his own documentation,,,,then come in on trim out and ask to have EVERY SINGLE DEVICE removed so grounds can be inspected,,,,,and that's a fact.

So,,,if I an inspector failed a rough in,,,because of the grounds not made up,,,

he did you a favor.


PS,,I voted yes because there is no code to cite for "when" you inspect grounds

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

OK for the sake of argument what is the inspector even looking for at this box?

IMO without the grounds made up there is nothing to inspect.

He is looking to see if the box is grounded and it is not. Most want to see that you have gone as far as you can without covering it up. If we don't need it made up here then why do we need it any boxes ?
I think it was just one of them i will finish it before i leave.
Could ask him to release your rough and tell him you will meet him on final and show him.
As an inspector i am not taking my time to remove cover and receptacle to inspect and then reinstall. Had the electrician been there and said oops i missed it then i think it would pass. All goes back to be on the job site.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

He is looking to see if the box is grounded and it is not. Most want to see that you have gone as far as you can without covering it up. If we don't need it made up here then why do we need it any boxes ?
I think it was just one of them i will finish it before i leave.
Could ask him to release your rough and tell him you will meet him on final and show him.
As an inspector i am not taking my time to remove cover and receptacle to inspect and then reinstall. Had the electrician been there and said oops i missed it then i think it would pass. All goes back to be on the job site.[/QUOTE]



On a complete sidenote, It really frustrates me when inspectors expect you to be there for every inspection, this week already, I have had three inspections, and have not attended any of them. I have another inspection Friday and do not plan on attending it either. Plenty often, I have two different inspections in different counties. I just don't understand your (or other inspectors) that seem to expect this.

 

[growler]

I have always been of the mindset that I would rather see unpainted conductors and shiny copper when I install the receptacles and exterior lights. Today, after an hour return trip to appease the inspector, I am finally broken.

George I would have made the ground up. My opinion is that most inspectors would take my word for it that I made that ground up with a simple phone call ( no re-inspection) and then I would catch it on the trim.

Actually I think it's dumb they even need to check the grounds. If I or anyone else was the type that would forget to make up grounds then we could just as easily forget to connect to the receptacle. The only way to know for sure if a receptacle is grounded is to test once it's installed. I do test all the receptacles on my jobs ( doesn't take very long and that way I know that they not only work but are wired correctly ).

The real problem is that they don't let me make any rules I only get to obey them. We all have a job to do an mine is not to reason why, mine is but to do or die ( red flag close enough ).












g

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

He is looking to see if the box is grounded and it is not. Most want to see that you have gone as far as you can without covering it up. If we don't need it made up here then why do we need it any boxes ?
I think it was just one of them i will finish it before i leave.
Could ask him to release your rough and tell him you will meet him on final and show him.
As an inspector i am not taking my time to remove cover and receptacle to inspect and then reinstall. Had the electrician been there and said oops i missed it then i think it would pass. All goes back to be on the job site.[/QUOTE]



On a complete sidenote, It really frustrates me when inspectors expect you to be there for every inspection, this week already, I have had three inspections, and have not attended any of them. I have another inspection Friday and do not plan on attending it either. Plenty often, I have two different inspections in different counties. I just don't understand your (or other inspectors) that seem to expect this.

It is not required you be there and on residential single homes it hard. I usually would use that day to run phones and cable that they do not inspect and sweep up. Perhaps clean up truck. On commercial i was usually required by my boss to be there. But that often is wall inspection and i have plenty more to do. It simply comes down to this, if your there and it is minor he will usually take your word that you will fix it before leaving.If your not he does not have your word. There is enough money on commercial to be there. Very important to pass and not hold up the job also is the company image if your looking for more work from the customer. I WILL BE THERE and great him/her with a friendly hello.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

It is not required you be there and on residential single homes it hard. I usually would use that day to run phones and cable that they do not inspect and sweep up. Perhaps clean up truck. On commercial i was usually required by my boss to be there. But that often is wall inspection and i have plenty more to do. It simply comes down to this, if your there and it is minor he will usually take your word that you will fix it before leaving.If your not he does not have your word. There is enough money on commercial to be there. Very important to pass and not hold up the job also is the company image if your looking for more work from the customer. I WILL BE THERE and great him/her with a friendly hello.

I agree 100 % with everything you wrote, I attend important inspections, but not all. I just think you should not get frustrated if the electrician is not there, because many inspectors do.

 

[George Stolz]

There are other possible violations he could find while doing this, but some of you are saying all he should care about is if the box is grounded?

It is kinda weird, isn't it? I could swap a couple conductors at the trim and use whites after the first receptacle as ungrounded conductors and a plug in tester would never catch it. This is a code violation on many levels, but nobody checks for it. It's taken as a matter of faith that the installer knows better. IMO, taking the time to put a ground pigtail into the box is the installer communicating an intention to passersby.

OK for the sake of argument what is the inspector even looking for at this box?

IMO without the grounds made up there is nothing to inspect.

The cable feeding it, how it's routed, how the box is installed, that there is a NM connector on the cable, that it's stapled and nailplated, that it doesn't pass through a plenum...

Lets have it George, did you simply forgot to do it ?

Not at all. I intentionally left the exterior boxes unstripped, and intentionally stripped out all the interior ones. Given that I had 35 cut-ins on the interior of the house, it should have been evident that I was aware of the requirements of 250.148.

If i was the inspector and that was only violation i would leave a note and i might check on trim. But if i was going by the book i could tag it.

Really? Which book?

The thing of it is,

there is no code that says the grounds have to be made up at time of rough in. EVERYBODY, including myself, make them up because this is the ONLY time an inspector could see it.

What black hole does the rear end of a cut-in box fall into after the GFCI is installed? Is it an effective box and/or ground fault path if it ceases to exist?

If an inspector REALLY wanted to be an pain, he could pass a rough with NO GROUNDS MADE UP , in any box, for an entire house, ,,,,,then he would make a sidenote on his own documentation,,,,then come in on trim out and ask to have EVERY SINGLE DEVICE removed so grounds can be inspected,,,,,and that's a fact.

How do inspectors inspect with no tools?

If we don't need it made up here then why do we need it any boxes ?

Good question - what if I just stubbed out without a box-sized hole or a box? Pass or fail?

All goes back to be on the job site.

I could camp out there for a day or two awaiting his arrival, but I didn't include that in the bid.

We all have a job to do an mine is not to reason why, mine is but to do or die ( red flag close enough ).

Hear hear - that's what I learned today. No need to call and discuss, just do or die. I believe I'll start leaving a bouquet of flowers and a couple cases of beer on the jobsite, maybe I'll stop getting these stupid tags.

 

[George Stolz]

I usually would use that day to run phones and cable that they do not inspect and sweep up.

If I could have swung it that way I would have, I like to do that too. But alas, it's not always practical.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have never had one ask me to be there. Have had the GC ask me to call him if any of the other trades had problems. It is team work and a desire for all inspections to pass as often they are needed for me to go my next step. You have the option to be there and he has the option to tag you over a 30 second fix.
I guess if a town demanded you be there they could. Never heard of any.
What George should have asked from inspectors only is would you have passed this.
It is up to AHJ as to what they want on inspection day. NEC cares not about inspections.

 

[readydave8]

I'm not voting in the poll, I think it may be not ready in theory but if the inspector saw compliant work everywhere else he could have figured out that you had a reason for leaving ext. box like that. He can't see every little thing, especially when stuff is added after he leaves, at some point there could be mutual respect and professional courtesy.

Unless you made him mad about something else and he's trying to get back at you? Or you're there from out of town? Not making excuses for him, just wondering.

 

[George Stolz]

Unless you made him mad about something else and he's trying to get back at you?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Not that I know of, but...?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

George are you telling us that this inspector will not take your word after a phone call as to why you did it this way and that you will finish it correctly and check it on final ? If that is the case you either pissed him off or he is one hard as a rock inspector.
A note saying next time make up the box would been enough.

Maybe he was just having a bad day. Perhaps his wife bit him on the leg as he was leaving this morning.

Leaving beer could backfire. Had a GC that as a thank you to the men finishing an upscale house went out and bought pizza and beer. He forgot and left a few cans behind in the frig. Customer was not happy.

 

[growler]

Unless you made him mad about something else and he's trying to get back at you? Or you're there from out of town? Not making excuses for him, just wondering.

Or maybe he just doesn't know you. From my experience it's a good idea to be on the job site with an inspector that I don't know ( first inspection ). Meet the guy/gal and let him/her ask a few questions if he/she likes. After they meet you it appears to me that the inspections get a heck of a lot easier.

I thinks it's because they like to know if you are the type that actually shows up on the job site and does the work or at least inspects the work yourself or the type that would send a couple of helpers out to do the job and never see it.

 

[George Stolz]

I tend to think it's just apathy. Why should he care if it's inconvenient? He gets paid the same - er - $50 more to come back out.

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

My vote is for laziness. By the looks of the dirt on the house, it looks like it's been sitting for a while. Is'nt there something in code about temp wiring over 90 days? I would have cut everything in put outlet and cover on and be done with it. Most of the work is done cutting box in, couple 2-3 more minutes the job is done.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I tend to think it's just apathy. Why should he care if it's inconvenient? He gets paid the same - er - $50 more to come back out.

And in this economy it just might be they need more fifties.
Not trying to slam inspectors here but isn't part of the benefits of being an inspector is not to get dirty or do physical work. Sure would be nice to ride around in nice AC truck and just wear out ink pens.

Hitting you for $50 is taking food from your family over simple to fix problem.
There is more to this than a simple tag. If he is this tough i would hate to deal with him on a whole house.