Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
- Occupation
- Engineer
Just like Ma Bell!
Circuit magically comes up again while on phone, test board says "It's leaving here OK, it must be your gear...."
123 V dropped to 93 V for 2 hrs
- Thread starter gar
- Start date
- Status
Just like Ma Bell!
Circuit magically comes up again while on phone, test board says "It's leaving here OK, it must be your gear...."
mivey
Senior Member
Or the "expert" tells me I have noise in my house wiring after I explain that I am getting the noise on their source line that I have isolated from my house (wound up being a damaged drop that got noisy when the ground got wet).
or how about:
Me: The phone company just buried a line and they must have cut your cable line because my TV signal just went out.
"Expert": We will send out a repair crew but we are going to have to charge you a $20 repair fee.
Me: Why don't you charge the phone company?
"Expert": Because you just admitted the line was cut.
Me: But I did not cut it, the phone company did.
"Expert": But you are the one that admitted it.
Me: I'm not "admitting" anything. I'm telling you the phone company just cut your line.
"Expert": And we are going to have to charge you a $20 repair fee.
Me: You should charge the phone company $20. Don't you utilities have some sort of an agreement?
"Expert": But we don't know if you are telling the truth about who cut the line. We charge you the $20 and you get the $20 back from the phone company.
Me: What planet are you on? I expect you to get out here and fix my line pronto or start pro-rating my bill. And I dare you to put a $20 repair fee on my bill.
"Expert": I'm going to send a repair crew out, but I can't guarantee you that there won't be a charge.
Me: If there is so much as one penny extra on my bill, I'll file a complaint with the county (the franchise holder), drop your service, and put in a dish.
I called the county and they said it sounded goofy to them and that they would take up the matter if it was not resolved. After talking to a real expert at the cable company, I wound up with a free month's service for my trouble. No fee was added to my bill.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Put the power quality analyzer on the service last night, all three phases are dropping 5-6 volts for 2-3 seconds. Wave form is very ragged, it may be due to all of the electronic ballasts, the main store fixtures are T-8's. No spikes in amperage at the main, so I believe it may be on the utility side.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100527-1931 EST
mivey:
That is exactly the kind of response one gets from the ignorant call takers. When I have "had it" with these ignorant people I then call the Michigan Public Service Commission. A while back the phone company was charging me a Detroit City tax on a phone that is at some property of mine that is not in Detroit. It took a while for the Public Service Commission to get ATT's head screwed on properly. Finally received a refund and the tax removed. But ATT would not solve the problem without pressure.
On my recent incident. My city block is about 1000 ft long and has about 18 houses, All these houses are fed from the primary lines that enter my yard. Second hand information is that everyone on the block had a problem. But I do not know if anyone lost total power for the extended time.
esobocinski:
Do you work for DTE or ITC? I am aware of the main U power plant. In the old days it used coal and now runs gas. I am about 1.5 miles from the power plant and just slightly more to North Campus. Does North Campus run on the U power plant. When I was first on North Campus in the Cooley Building it was just one building on several thousand acres.
I believe my substation is near the corner of Washtenaw and Stadium and the city water tank. This is about 3/4 mile from me.
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mivey:
That is exactly the kind of response one gets from the ignorant call takers. When I have "had it" with these ignorant people I then call the Michigan Public Service Commission. A while back the phone company was charging me a Detroit City tax on a phone that is at some property of mine that is not in Detroit. It took a while for the Public Service Commission to get ATT's head screwed on properly. Finally received a refund and the tax removed. But ATT would not solve the problem without pressure.
On my recent incident. My city block is about 1000 ft long and has about 18 houses, All these houses are fed from the primary lines that enter my yard. Second hand information is that everyone on the block had a problem. But I do not know if anyone lost total power for the extended time.
esobocinski:
Do you work for DTE or ITC? I am aware of the main U power plant. In the old days it used coal and now runs gas. I am about 1.5 miles from the power plant and just slightly more to North Campus. Does North Campus run on the U power plant. When I was first on North Campus in the Cooley Building it was just one building on several thousand acres.
I believe my substation is near the corner of Washtenaw and Stadium and the city water tank. This is about 3/4 mile from me.
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gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100527-2226 EST
hillbilly1:
If you are looking at the voltage as it enters the building, then is it ragged there?
I believe that electronic ballasts and computers will primarily flat top the voltage waveform and not likely produce oscillation or jaggedness.
What kind of jaggedness do you see? Does it look like damped oscillations superimposed on the 60 Hz waveform? Does it seem to be correlated with a consistent phase angle relative to a zero crossing for reference?
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hillbilly1:
If you are looking at the voltage as it enters the building, then is it ragged there?
I believe that electronic ballasts and computers will primarily flat top the voltage waveform and not likely produce oscillation or jaggedness.
What kind of jaggedness do you see? Does it look like damped oscillations superimposed on the 60 Hz waveform? Does it seem to be correlated with a consistent phase angle relative to a zero crossing for reference?
.
esobocinski
Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, MI
gar: I worked for UM Plant Engineering as a civil engineering draftsman/inspector for a while many (many) years ago when I was on a different career path, and became very familiar with utility infrastructure when UM first installed it's own phone system. I'm also curious and took advantage of plans access beyond what I needed to find out where everything connected. I don't have any DTE or ITC connections, sorry.
North Campus and South Campus (athletics) both have completely separate infrastructures (except for phone/data). Main Campus now uses utility power whenever possible too, 'cause it's cheaper. Generating their own is an advantage only during the steam-generating season, because it's better to keep the boilers running at full pressure all the time and divert excess steam to the generators during periods of lower steam demand. Of course, the technology has advanced far enough since I was there that some of the details could have changed.
North Campus and South Campus (athletics) both have completely separate infrastructures (except for phone/data). Main Campus now uses utility power whenever possible too, 'cause it's cheaper. Generating their own is an advantage only during the steam-generating season, because it's better to keep the boilers running at full pressure all the time and divert excess steam to the generators during periods of lower steam demand. Of course, the technology has advanced far enough since I was there that some of the details could have changed.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
I have it connected at the utility side of the service disconnect, The wave form looks kinda like steps were cut into it, the deepest one near, but not at the top on both sides of the peak on all three phases. When I go back and pick it up, I will see if I can save the screen and post it.
mivey
Senior Member
Time for a block party and setting up a neighborhood watch program. They probably have no idea what a techie their neighbor is.
You need to make some friends at the utility if you want to be able to get the real scoop.
I looked for your substation. I found a water tower on Manchester. There are a lot of lines running N-S on Manchester and E-W and Washtenaw and the reactagular object that looks like the substation just north of the water tower. Seems like you could use Google earth to trace the lines from your house and see if they go here (you would not be able to see any open points).
It looks like the transmission runs east on Washtenaw then turns south before Arlington or maybe crosses over just past Arlington then heads west over Huron and on down to Clark.
It is too hard to see if there is another substation but riding it out would be the best way to find your way to the correct substation. If the wire size decreases, you went the wrong way. The poles should get more congested as you head towards the substation. If you are careful, you will be able to identify which feeder in the substation is yours.
I would just be temped to run by the POCO operations office and ask.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100528-2115 EST
mivey:
Thanks for your analysis.
Did you use Google Satellite to follow the lines?
We have so many trees it is hard to see much detail. Our Primary runs on the NE side of Washtenaw between Stadium and Toumy. At the corner of Tuomy and Washtenaw is the Tuomy farm house, This is the highest spot in Washtenaw County on the eastern side, Tuomy's windmill tower was used in the early days of TV to serve as the relay point from Michigan Stadium to the WWJ-TV facilities at the top of the Penobscot building in Detroit.
The Tuomy house is at 42.265, -83.717988 . About 600 to 800 feet SE of the Tuomy corner is the last pole of the primary. At this point it goes underground. I do not believe this is the source end. I do believe the water tower substation is what supplies this line along Washtenaw.
I believe there is a pole at 42.263044, -83.715891 where the service branches to feed my block. My block is centered at 42.263376, -83.712859 .
Closer to Stadium at about 42.261351, -83.71346 I believe the primary goes underground again. If so this would provide a path over to the water tower substation. I used street view to get this approximate location. Will do a drive by tomorrow to see what is there.
Lots of fun to see what you can find with satellite data.
Whitepages.com appears to have better aerial photos than Google.
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mivey:
Thanks for your analysis.
Did you use Google Satellite to follow the lines?
We have so many trees it is hard to see much detail. Our Primary runs on the NE side of Washtenaw between Stadium and Toumy. At the corner of Tuomy and Washtenaw is the Tuomy farm house, This is the highest spot in Washtenaw County on the eastern side, Tuomy's windmill tower was used in the early days of TV to serve as the relay point from Michigan Stadium to the WWJ-TV facilities at the top of the Penobscot building in Detroit.
The Tuomy house is at 42.265, -83.717988 . About 600 to 800 feet SE of the Tuomy corner is the last pole of the primary. At this point it goes underground. I do not believe this is the source end. I do believe the water tower substation is what supplies this line along Washtenaw.
I believe there is a pole at 42.263044, -83.715891 where the service branches to feed my block. My block is centered at 42.263376, -83.712859 .
Closer to Stadium at about 42.261351, -83.71346 I believe the primary goes underground again. If so this would provide a path over to the water tower substation. I used street view to get this approximate location. Will do a drive by tomorrow to see what is there.
Lots of fun to see what you can find with satellite data.
Whitepages.com appears to have better aerial photos than Google.
.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100530-2245 EST
mivey:
I got the coordinates from Google Satellite. The center of the roof of the front part of the Tuomy house is 42.265194, -83.718205 .
A duplex at 2120 Washtenaw has its center at 42.26467, -83.718575 . This is almost directly across the street from the Tuomy house. The Tuomy house is on the east corner of the intersection of Tuomy and Washtenaw and still occupies about 2.5 acres.
Along Washtenaw on the NE side a bike path is being installed. This requires moving all the DTE poles and moving these further from the road. The new ones are much taller to get above the trees and appear to have heavier wire. These now cross Washtenaw at about 42.260069, -83.712033 to get over to the substation by the water tower.
So I have determined that the water tower substation is my supply.
I do not know how to find or enter coordinates in whitepages.com .
Whitepages uses bing.com for photos. Going directly to bing.com and putting the Tuomy house coordinates from above under A resulted in the green A flag directly on the house. Bird's eye view provides very good pictures.
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mivey:
I got the coordinates from Google Satellite. The center of the roof of the front part of the Tuomy house is 42.265194, -83.718205 .
A duplex at 2120 Washtenaw has its center at 42.26467, -83.718575 . This is almost directly across the street from the Tuomy house. The Tuomy house is on the east corner of the intersection of Tuomy and Washtenaw and still occupies about 2.5 acres.
Along Washtenaw on the NE side a bike path is being installed. This requires moving all the DTE poles and moving these further from the road. The new ones are much taller to get above the trees and appear to have heavier wire. These now cross Washtenaw at about 42.260069, -83.712033 to get over to the substation by the water tower.
So I have determined that the water tower substation is my supply.
I do not know how to find or enter coordinates in whitepages.com .
Whitepages uses bing.com for photos. Going directly to bing.com and putting the Tuomy house coordinates from above under A resulted in the green A flag directly on the house. Bird's eye view provides very good pictures.
.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100531-0804 EST
mivey:
Using Google Satellite position the cursor on the point you want, right click, then pick "What is Here". Displayed above and to the left of the top left corner of the map is the coordinate location.
On Google Satellite the top end of the University of Michigan power plant smoke stack is at 42.281093, -83,734059 . It is very dark and hard to see. Next put these coordinates into Bing and you get a good picture. The cursor here is not centered on the stack because the Google photo is at such an angle that a 200 ft tall object when projected to ground is not at the base of the object.
Henry Ford created a number of small village plants to make small parts and supply jobs to farmers near their homes. These were all characterized by being next to a river, having a dam, and their own generator. One of the smallest and lowest water drops was at Sharon Hollow. Put 42.17715, -84.092695 in Bing and you see a white clap board building with a lake to the left of the road and the narrow stream to the right. This is at the head waters of the Raisin River. This location is now a park.
Several miles down river at Manchester is a larger dam and plant. See 42.149584, -84.023491 . In Bing you can see water going over the dam. From memory this is maybe a 10 ft drop.
I can not always get Bing to respond to my inputted coordinates. Also can not find out how to get coordinates from Bing.
.
mivey:
Using Google Satellite position the cursor on the point you want, right click, then pick "What is Here". Displayed above and to the left of the top left corner of the map is the coordinate location.
On Google Satellite the top end of the University of Michigan power plant smoke stack is at 42.281093, -83,734059 . It is very dark and hard to see. Next put these coordinates into Bing and you get a good picture. The cursor here is not centered on the stack because the Google photo is at such an angle that a 200 ft tall object when projected to ground is not at the base of the object.
Henry Ford created a number of small village plants to make small parts and supply jobs to farmers near their homes. These were all characterized by being next to a river, having a dam, and their own generator. One of the smallest and lowest water drops was at Sharon Hollow. Put 42.17715, -84.092695 in Bing and you see a white clap board building with a lake to the left of the road and the narrow stream to the right. This is at the head waters of the Raisin River. This location is now a park.
Several miles down river at Manchester is a larger dam and plant. See 42.149584, -84.023491 . In Bing you can see water going over the dam. From memory this is maybe a 10 ft drop.
I can not always get Bing to respond to my inputted coordinates. Also can not find out how to get coordinates from Bing.
.
Open Neutral
Senior Member
- Location
- Inside the Beltway
- Occupation
- Engineer
When playing with mapping/imagery, I find it good to use the Geohack Toolserver. Then you can easily consult many sources.
On Bing, you need to use the "share" envelope on the lower left to get a link. In general, Bing is an unpredictable pain. It does not like Firefox or Opera. It balks on a destination, and then the next time it is fine.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100601-2142 EST
Open Neutral:
Thanks.
mivey:
I assume your comment means your home area is not included. Also do you have Google Street View in your area.
Since Larry Page is a graduate of the U of M we may have received Street View sooner that other areas.
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Open Neutral:
Thanks.
mivey:
I assume your comment means your home area is not included. Also do you have Google Street View in your area.
Since Larry Page is a graduate of the U of M we may have received Street View sooner that other areas.
.
mivey
Senior Member
I get 929ft. My TOPO shows a slightly higher spot (934 ft) near Oswego St between Geddes and Seneca.
Further away I get in the 960's just north of Dexter between SR 14 and a couple of points at 970 ft near N Wagner Rd & Rose Dr. Another 960+ area in the SR 14, Miller Rd, N Maple Rd triangle. The highest in that area seems to be 988 ft just south of SR 14 surrounded by Sunset, Vesper, Olden, & Pomona.
Some other highest points in the east part of the county seem to be:
About 1070 ft near the Scio Church Rd, S Wagner Rd Area (and a pretty interesting TOPO hole between Wagner & Tessmer N42.252823?, W83.811571?
About 1045 ft near N Dixboro Rd & Pontiac Tr (N42.360358?, W83.658633?)
About 1042 ft near W 8 Mile Rd & Currie Rd (N42.433598?, W83.589224?)
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
100602-0838 EST
mivey:
Interesting.
I was aware that Scio Church and Wagner was the highest spot in the county. When we did some direction finding experiments years ago I picked on that location from which to transmit. It is long ago that I looked at topographic maps of the county.
You will notice a facility at the NE corner of Wagner and Scio Church that is some sort of regional power monitoring location. It is called Michigan Regional Power Center.
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mivey:
Interesting.
I was aware that Scio Church and Wagner was the highest spot in the county. When we did some direction finding experiments years ago I picked on that location from which to transmit. It is long ago that I looked at topographic maps of the county.
You will notice a facility at the NE corner of Wagner and Scio Church that is some sort of regional power monitoring location. It is called Michigan Regional Power Center.
.
esobocinski
Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, MI
Mivey: Topo hole is a gravel quarry. You'll see another shallower one slightly over a mile NE, and another 3.5 miles NNW along the river. The county geology is glacial till and has quarries of various deposits scattered throughout.
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