Connection to GEC

[st1976]

Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing
Copper water pipes need to be bonded (not used as GEC)
250.104 says I can "bond to the GEC where of sufficent size"

I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC or do I have to go all the way back to the panel?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[ZZDoug]

Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......

 

[st1976]

Thanks for the reply.

-Andy

 

[ceb58]

Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing
Copper water pipes need to be bonded (not used as GEC)
250.104 says I can "bond to the GEC where of sufficent size"

I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC or do I have to go all the way back to the panel?

Thanks,
Andy

Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......

Why did he not give enough info? 200amp service. By 250.66 A it could have been #6cu or #4al

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Surprised nobody has answered this after 2 days. You can simply tap off the existing GEC as per 250.64(C)(1) with either cadweld or irreversible crimp. Thats assuming your #4 GEC is correct size, you didnt give enough info for that......

There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.

 

[gndrod]

Hello,

I know there must be a thread on this somewhere but I can't find one. If someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Residential 200A 1 Phase service
1 panel
#4 GEC from panel to well casing


I forgot to hit the copper water pipes on my way by with the GEC. Can I run #4 from the cold water pipe to the GEC ?

Thanks,
Andy

Yes. [250.70] bond is permitted.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.

Don, there is a graphic similar to this that I always wondered about. where the GEC to the water pipe is tapped to 2 panels. I always thought these had to have irreversible crimps. Am I correct? I will post the graphic.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Dennis,
In the question in this thread, the conductor is not a GEC, but a bonding conductor to the interior metal water piping system as required by 250.104.

As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.

 

[infinity]

There is no rule that would require the use of an irreversible crimp or a cadweld to make this tap connection to the GEC.

Dennis,
In the question in this thread, the conductor is not a GEC, but a bonding conductor to the interior metal water piping system as required by 250.104.

As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.

Don is there a specific code section that permits this tap from the GEC to bond the water pipe? 250.64(D)(1) only covers services and I agree that a split bolt would also be permitted for those taps.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well then how do we cover the section that says the GEC must be continuous 250.62(C)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

As to your question, 250.64(D)(1) clearly permits the use of other than an irreversible connection for a grounding electrode conductor tap.

Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.

 

[Smart $]

Don is there a specific code section that permits this tap from the GEC to bond the water pipe? 250.64(D)(1) only covers services and I agree that a split bolt would also be permitted for those taps.

Not Don, but yes...

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).


[2 & 3 omitted for brevity; covers multiple occupancies and buildings]

 

[infinity]

Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.

If you're referring to your graphic the GEC ends and the two taps are bonding jumpers. Therefore the GEC is not spliced at all. If the first switch had the same size tap conductor (as the GEC) then I would call that a splice.

 

[infinity]

Not Don, but yes...

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).


[2 & 3 omitted for brevity; covers multiple occupancies and buildings]

Does it have to be irreversible or compression type?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don I don't see that section specifically allowing a tap to be splice. If the GEC is continuous into one panel then I can see a split bolt to the first panel.

I don't know why you would need to make a splice to connect a tap conductor. I never said you could make a splice without using some type of irreversible connection, I only said you can tap to the GEC without using an irreversible connection.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Does it have to be irreversible or compression type?

Why would it have to be irreversible? The only rule that requires that type of connection is the one for the GEC. The conductor to the interior water pipe is not a GEC.

 

[Smart $]

Does it have to be irreversible or compression type?

No. See 250.8 for types of connection permitted for a bonding conductor.

Why would it have to be irreversible? The only rule that requires that type of connection is the one for the GEC. The conductor to the interior water pipe is not a GEC.

That rule [250.64(C)] is not for GEC connections. It is for wire-type GEC splicing.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't know why you would need to make a splice to connect a tap conductor. I never said you could make a splice without using some type of irreversible connection, I only said you can tap to the GEC without using an irreversible connection.

In my eyes if the gec does not terminate at the panel then the tap conductors are splices.

 

[Smart $]

In my eyes if the gec does not terminate at the panel then the tap conductors are splices.

But the continuous requirement is for GEC conductors, not GEC tap conductors.

End of 250.64(D)(1)...

... The tap conductors shall be connected to the common grounding electrode conductor by exothermic welding or with connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment in such a manner that the common grounding electrode conductor remains without a splice or joint.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
That rule [250.64(C)] is not for GEC connections. It is for wire-type GEC splicing.

A splice is a specific type of connection.