Unbelievable bids.

[wireguy8169]

You claim that $10/hr licensed electricians exist in the US? Please, do tell us where in the US this would be.

Not sure what the rate is now but in Johnstown PA in the 2002 the lead guy on the job was getting 12$ an hour and the other guys (had to have Journeyman Certificate not a licsens) $10 unless we worked PW jobs. I actually went out on my own for this reason, but even then I found threw a contractor friend of mine that average billable rate in that area was 15-20 residential and about 25-32 an hr for industrial and commercial. Even answered an add for a mine electrician $9 bucks an hr...had to have emsha cert already.

You may think I am BSing but the reason being that the steel mills closed down and it was a highly receesed area but you could buy a house for 25 thousand too. Needles to say I got the heck out of dodge...:grin:

 

[flyboy]

You got me, I cannot so maybe they do or maybe they do not exist.


But we are not going to go down that road here, please stay on topic.

It's easier to stay on topic when people make comments and statements that they can substantiate; but I get your request, fair enough.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

It's economics 101. We have way more electricians than are required right now. No one knows where the bottom will be.

The majority of us were employed in construction, that is where most of the electricians were employed. There is just not enough work outside of construction to keep us all busy.

I say again, no one knows where the bottom will be.

 

[ksmith846]

Is it any wonder why this business is filled with low balling, bottom feeding competitors?

Flame suit on!

Here's a formula to figure your selling price for a one truck operation (you in the truck, no employees):

Copy and paste this into Word, Excel or program of choice.

Note: This formula is for residential/light commercial service work (no new construction) using flat rate pricing.

I run a 10 man shop with 4 work vans. Only one of these runs service calls on a daily basis. The other 3 are normally on construction jobs...IE shells, Tenant improvements and other smaller bid jobs.

My pricing is based off of 10 men in the field....3 of whom are licensed journeyman and one other is in school to get licensed. The rest are experienced 3 and 4 year helpers/mechanics. I have included all of my overhead costs into my $32.00 per man hour. The average per man hour labor cost with burden for me with 10 men working is $21.75 per hour. This leaves me with $10.25 per man hour to cover my overhead costs. This is the pricing I use to bid all of my construction jobs.

Service calls however, are billed at $65 Service call fee, $95.00 per hour with 35% markup on materials.

So just because your one man shop example costs more on the per man hour rate than my 10 man shop does not mean that I am ruining the cost levels of our trade.

 

[cdslotz]

Your breakeven is the total of all your fixed and variable costs, which includes your salary. It is not a "markup". It's your total cost of doing business before profit.

Oh so the use of the term "markup" is what's bothering you?
Got it.
Since I told you that I know what my breakeven is, I would would have to assume you knew that I also know what my overhead runs. Which I do. I know exactly what it runs.

 

[flyboy]

I run a 10 man shop with 4 work vans. Only one of these runs service calls on a daily basis. The other 3 are normally on construction jobs...IE shells, Tenant improvements and other smaller bid jobs.

My pricing is based off of 10 men in the field....3 of whom are licensed journeyman and one other is in school to get licensed. The rest are experienced 3 and 4 year helpers/mechanics. I have included all of my overhead costs into my $32.00 per man hour. The average per man hour labor cost with burden for me with 10 men working is $21.75 per hour. This leaves me with $10.25 per man hour to cover my overhead costs. This is the pricing I use to bid all of my construction jobs.

Service calls however, are billed at $65 Service call fee, $95.00 per hour with 35% markup on materials.

So just because your one man shop example costs more on the per man hour rate than my 10 man shop does not mean that I am ruining the cost levels of our trade.

The one man shop example does not apply to you, or me for that matter with 13 service trucks and (2) two man crews. It for a "one man shop". That's why it's titled, "For a One Shop".

Oh, and the rates you just posted above...well, never mind.

Go ahead, you can have the last word.

Cheers!

 

[flyboy]

Oh so the use of the term "markup" is what's bothering you?
Got it.
Since I told you that I know what my breakeven is, I would would have to assume you knew that I also know what my overhead runs. Which I do. I know exactly what it runs.

Congratulations...

 

[ksmith846]

The one man shop example does not apply to you, or me for that matter with 13 service trucks and (2) two man crews. It for a "one man shop". That's why it's titled, "For a One Shop".

Oh, and the rates you just posted above...well, never mind.

Go ahead, you can have the last word.

Cheers!

I do not really need to justify my rates to you or anyone else. I see you are in NY and that right away would dictate that your prices would be more than here in "El Cheapo Florida".

Congrats on being better than everyone else. It must get tiresome carrying around all of that ego all week long.

It's easy to chastise people who are trying to make a living when you have it easy. I did not have anyone hand me down a company as I see yours was. I started mine 6 years ago and have been doing fine. Could I do better? Of course I can. I am self taught and learning more about my Trade/Business everyday.

We can't all be you.......not sure I would want to be anyhow.

 

[flyboy]

I do not really need to justify my rates to you or anyone else. I see you are in NY and that right away would dictate that your prices would be more than here in "El Cheapo Florida".

Congrats on being better than everyone else. It must get tiresome carrying around all of that ego all week long.

It's easy to chastise people who are trying to make a living when you have it easy. I did not have anyone hand me down a company as I see yours was. I started mine 6 years ago and have been doing fine. Could I do better? Of course I can. I am self taught and learning more about my Trade/Business everyday.

We can't all be you.......not sure I would want to be anyhow.

I did say you could have the last word, but I am going to correct one thing. I did not have the business handed down to me. I started it from scratch, day one. As far as your claim "El Cheapo Florida" is concerned; that is your perception. The reality is you have competiors all around you that are priced for profit. Why is that?

Oh, and I'm not asking you or anyone else to justify their prices. Knock yourself out.

 

[ksmith846]

I did say you could have the last word, but I am going to correct one thing. I did not have the business handed down to me. I started it from scratch, day one. As far as your claim "El Cheapo Florida" is concerned; that is your perception. The reality is you have competiors all around you that are priced for profit. Why is that?

Oh, and I'm not asking you or anyone else to justify their prices. Knock yourself out.

Last word???......correctly assumed that this would not happen as your ego controls you.

Wind 'em up...aim where you want 'em to go and yeehaw...

Again thanks for allowing me to leave beneath your shadow all knowing and benevolent one. I can only aspire to attain your great stature on this planet within my lifetime.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Flame suit on!

i'd suggest something around 250 calories, altho it may be
difficult to type wearing the gloves.....
what we have here, is a failure to communicate.....

and, a shitty economic picture, that is not getting better.
and a *lot* of scared people... and frightened people can
get viscous.

and threads on here discussing how the trade has gone
down the tubes, are many and varied... as are the endless
debates on proper pricing, in the chance you actually find
a customer with money to pay you.

based on my experience of late, the last thing i signed a
contract for was an office TI, in may. 4 dozen can lights,
handful of plugs, about a weeks work. got 2 dozen cat 6
drops, and a couple other things, brought it to about $25k...

so, maybe 80 hours. whatever. the two weeks work was
spread over a month... it's been done for 4 months now.

it was 6 weeks AFTER the work was done, before i got a
check, and that was pulling teeth. i know the customer.
his draws were paid in full the day after they were submitted.

he's still into me for over $2k.... maybe i'll see it before
the end of the year. maybe. if he's still in business.
he's been in business 30 years... i give him six months
at the outside.

there's a plastering and steel stud company in so calif
named Froelich...... been around since the late 40's.
buildings paid for, everything is owned... has been for
a long time... they closed the doors, and just parked it.

not even selling it off. nobody to buy it.

at this point, i'm just operating a service truck, paying
my bills, and making wages. some days are really good,
some days are "make $0" and go get the van washed.

i have a couple of economic indicators that are infallible...
one is the "mark indicator" and the other is the
"danny indicator", two friend who i've known since
forever, who are in the trades.... mark has worked
60-70 hours a week in the 25 years i've known him....
year in and year out.

he had 9 billable hours last week.

danny has missed three weeks of work, due to lack
of work, since high school.... and he's working now...
7 hours from home, coming home every other weekend.
'cause there isn't anything closer.

and right now, like it or not, your prices are being set
by someone who is desperate for work, and will prolly
go out of business doing the job he took away from
you.

i figure it's at least two more years, if we are truly lucky,
before things start improving.... and we haven't been lucky
much lately.

just my experience.


randy

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I hate to say there is a lot of truth in what you say Randy.

But............. there are some glimmers of hope, but it will not get back to what we all were used to and 8%-10% unemployment may be a structural problem that might not go away.

If you are older like me (just about 58).... well,..... hope you saved for that (I mean this) rainy day. If you are younger, get yourself more education. Set yourself apart.

You won't make as much as you think you should, not for quite a while to come.

 

[nhfire77]

I realize it tough for everyone. I hope that Flyboy's message does not go unheard. He's challenging you to do better.

Someone here said "I choose not to participate in the economic downturn."

I have been laying the ground work to have what C&S wholesale grocers mission statement is all about: Braggingly happy customers; Quality in everything we do. Strive for it!!

C&S is a 80 Billion Dollar company owned by one man (smart guy obviously, and they are doing well). And no, I don't work for them.

Those happy customers are still calling for work. Not as much and not as big, but, if you can weather this, all those guys doing the work for no money will eventually go belly up. If you survive, you will thrive, and then the better, rates will be the norm...IMO.

 

[electricguy]

I for one really appreciate flyboy"s posts, He is much inline with all the contractor success groups that I follow on Facebook and Twitter. I even get a lot of good info from linkedin.
Thanks Flyboy, for all your input I really hope you will stick around as others in the same mindset have seem to gone away from most of the forums.

 

[cdslotz]

Flyboy challenged us to do better?
He insisted that "his" way is the only way. He lumped me and others here into his "bottom feeder" catagory.
Then he told us if we didn't, to get out of the business and open a hot dog wagon.
He offered a formula for a flat rate pricing of a service truck.
Then he proceeds to lecture us on breakeven and offered a tutorial on figuring overhead.


He concludes with "Oh, and I'm not asking you or anyone else to justify their prices. Knock yourself out."

What exactly did he challenge us to do?

 

[nhfire77]

Flyboy challenged us to do better?
He insisted that "his" way is the only way. He lumped me and others here into his "bottom feeder" catagory.
Then he told us if we didn't, to get out of the business and open a hot dog wagon.
He offered a formula for a flat rate pricing of a service truck.
Then he proceeds to lecture us on breakeven and offered a tutorial on figuring overhead.


He concludes with "Oh, and I'm not asking you or anyone else to justify their prices. Knock yourself out."

What exactly did he challenge us to do?

Mephorically speaking. His statements challenged the way you do things. There was a bit of rhetoric in it, but he means well. The better the trade as a whole does the more money we all make. I'm not inside the guys head, just my opinion. I am not interested in telling anyone there wrong, I'm not you.

 

[flyboy]

just my experience.

Actually, that's your perception of how things are. Dwell on only the negative and it becomes "your reality".

While you may think your "economic indicators" somehow become the barometer for all that is possible (or impossible) in this economy, I would suggest you find some "indicators" that have had success in this economy.

Sometimes you just have to figure out how to make things work in adverse conditions. That's what separates the mover and shakers from the excuse makers.

 

[iwire]

Flyboy I know what you are trying to say but the vast amount of out of work electricians are not a 'perception' it is a reality. To me some of your posts come across as very arrogant. You may well be as good as you say but luck also plays a large roll in things.

 

[flyboy]

Flyboy I know what you are trying to say but the vast amount of out of work electricians are not a 'perception' it is a reality. To me some of your posts come across as very arrogant. You may well be as good as you say but luck also plays a large roll in things.

I?m not speaking to ?out of work electricians? as a perception. I?m speaking to contractors, in the business of providing electrical services and products, for a fee, who complain there isn?t any work or that people don?t want to pay. Is this not the ?Electrical Contracting Estimating/Management? forum?

I?ll tell you what, let?s switch gears and talk about the unemployed electricians. After all, in a very large way, it is the inability of the electrical contractor to find work that is the reason for them being unemployed.

Perhaps as a moderator, with some 38k plus posts, who obviously spends a lot of time on this forum and no doubt contributes more than most, you could help those out of work electricians; which by the way, has nothing to do with luck.

How about this; start a new forum titled ?Job Discussion?. Maybe we can actually do something about putting ?out of work electricians? and electrical contractors, looking for electricians, together? A place where out of work electricians can seek out contractors and a place where contractors can post job openings.

What do you think? Want to run it past Mike Holt?

Or, we can just let ?lady luck? help those out of work electricians.

I?ll go one more step. Here are the suggested rules for the ?Job Discussion? forum to be edited as you or others see fit.

You must qualify before posting a ?Help Wanted? ad.
You must be a Professional Member of this site with no less than 100 posts and/or your membership must be no less than six (6) months old. If you do not meet these requirements your post will be removed.

Professional Members may not advertise ?Help Wanted? more than:
1. Two (2) times in a month or
2. Four (4) times a quarter or
3. Eight (8) times a calendar year regardless of the position they wish to fill.

Job posts are allowed to include the following:
1. Email addresses
2. Phone numbers
3. Salary or hourly pay rates
4. Benefit information
5. Links to the hiring company

Job post are NOT allowed to include the following:
1. Links to or with DIY or equipment internet sales ads
2. Links to competitive sites of Mike Holt?s Forum.com
3. Links to competitive sites of Electrical Contractor or EC&M magazine
4. Links to ?Head Hunter? organizations

Those who are NOT allowed to post ?Help Wanted' posts:
1. Employment search firms or ?Head Hunters?
2. Employment search firms must use the Contact Us button at the bottom of the screen for advertisement rates.

Job Discussion rules for Employment Seekers:
1. You may post a ?Job Needed? or ?Relocation Request? at any time.
2. There are no membership time or post requirements.
3. There is a Forum Rule (make this a link to the general Mike Holt Forum Rules) against double posting and bumping. Please don?t be obvious about it.

These rules work very well in another forum, from another trade, that does not compete with the electrical industry.

 

[fridaymean]

Actually, that's your perception of how things are. Dwell on only the negative and it becomes "your reality".

While you may think your "economic indicators" somehow become the barometer for all that is possible (or impossible) in this economy, I would suggest you find some "indicators" that have had success in this economy.

Sometimes you just have to figure out how to make things work in adverse conditions. That's what separates the mover and shakers from the excuse makers.

The truth is you are right, but so is everyone else. "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

The reality there are less dollars being spent on electrical work, and construction as a whole.(in the general markets most of us are used to competing in. This generally causes prices to drop.(supply and demand).

I think there is a time and place for everything, and this "pep talk", although true, may actually be insulting to some fellow contractors who are having a tough go at it because of the macroeconomic environment.