Unbelievable bids.

[iwire]

I’m not speaking to “out of work electricians” as a perception. I’m speaking to contractors, in the business of providing electrical services and products, for a fee, who complain there isn’t any work or that people don’t want to pay. Is this not the “Electrical Contracting Estimating/Management” forum?

OK, lets imagine if every one of the existing ECs suddenly adopted each thing you are advocating wholeheartedly ........ would all the ECs be in the black?

Would there be enough work for all?



fridaymean put it pretty darn well.

I think there is a time and place for everything, and this "pep talk", although true, may actually be insulting to some fellow contractors who are having a tough go at it because of the macroeconomic environment.

 

[iwire]

I?ll tell you what, let?s switch gears and talk about the unemployed electricians. After all, in a very large way, it is the inability of the electrical contractor to find work that is the reason for them being unemployed.

Perhaps as a moderator, with some 38k plus posts, who obviously spends a lot of time on this forum and no doubt contributes more than most, you could help those out of work electricians; which by the way, has nothing to do with luck.

How about this; start a new forum titled ?Job Discussion?. Maybe we can actually do something about putting ?out of work electricians? and electrical contractors, looking for electricians, together? A place where out of work electricians can seek out contractors and a place where contractors can post job openings.

What do you think? Want to run it past Mike Holt?

Or, we can just let ?lady luck? help those out of work electricians.

I?ll go one more step. Here are the suggested rules for the ?Job Discussion? forum to be edited as you or others see fit.

You must qualify before posting a ?Help Wanted? ad.
You must be a Professional Member of this site with no less than 100 posts and/or your membership must be no less than six (6) months old. If you do not meet these requirements your post will be removed.

Professional Members may not advertise ?Help Wanted? more than:
1. Two (2) times in a month or
2. Four (4) times a quarter or
3. Eight (8) times a calendar year regardless of the position they wish to fill.

Job posts are allowed to include the following:
1. Email addresses
2. Phone numbers
3. Salary or hourly pay rates
4. Benefit information
5. Links to the hiring company

Job post are NOT allowed to include the following:
1. Links to or with DIY or equipment internet sales ads
2. Links to competitive sites of Mike Holt?s Forum.com
3. Links to competitive sites of Electrical Contractor or EC&M magazine
4. Links to ?Head Hunter? organizations

Those who are NOT allowed to post ?Help Wanted' posts:
1. Employment search firms or ?Head Hunters?
2. Employment search firms must use the Contact Us button at the bottom of the screen for advertisement rates.

Job Discussion rules for Employment Seekers:
1. You may post a ?Job Needed? or ?Relocation Request? at any time.
2. There are no membership time or post requirements.
3. There is a Forum Rule (make this a link to the general Mike Holt Forum Rules) against double posting and bumping. Please don?t be obvious about it.

These rules work very well in another forum, from another trade, that does not compete with the electrical industry.

Send your thoughts to Mike Holt.

 

[stevenje]

Flyboy, I am glad that you have built a successfull EC business in your area, but please turn down the ego. Your message will be heard by more if you play the role of the mentor instead of the preacher.

 

[John120/240]

Couldn't have said it better. Thank You Steve

 

[flyboy]

OK, lets imagine if every one of the existing ECs suddenly adopted each thing you are advocating wholeheartedly ........ would all the ECs be in the black?

Yes

Would there be enough work for all?

Yes

fridaymean put it pretty darn well.

What's the point? Let's face it, no matter what I say, if it isn't in the doom and gloom general tone of things here, it's going to hurt someone's feelings, or ego. It's so much easier to shift the focus on my alleged "arrogance", "ego", etc., then facing up to one?s own shortcomings.

I really don't want to be responsible for that, nor do I want to contribute to the overall pessimistic tone of this forum.

Best of luck to all and God Bless...

 

[electricguy]

I for one really appreciate flyboy"s posts, He is much inline with all the contractor success groups that I follow on Facebook and Twitter. I even get a lot of good info from linkedin.
Thanks Flyboy, for all your input I really hope you will stick around as others in the same mindset have seem to gone away from most of the forums.

And another one goes off to greener pastures.

 

[Mgraw]

What's the point? Let's face it, no matter what I say, if it isn't in the doom and gloom general tone of things here, it's going to hurt someone's feelings, or ego. It's so much easier to shift the focus on my alleged "arrogance", "ego", etc., then facing up to one?s own shortcomings.

I really don't want to be responsible for that, nor do I want to contribute to the overall pessimistic tone of this forum.

Best of luck to all and God Bless...

I think that is pretty arrogant considering you "walked" into a family business. Yes I know you changed the focus from electrical to A/C and plumbing. Not all of us are so fortunate. Many of us started with nothing and struggle to make it work.

 

[bradleyelectric]

I think that is pretty arrogant considering you "walked" into a family business. Yes I know you changed the focus from electrical to A/C and plumbing. Not all of us are so fortunate. Many of us started with nothing and struggle to make it work.

If someone practices solid business principles would it make a big difference if they had an existing business or they were starting 1?

 

[mivey]

If someone practices solid business principles would it make a big difference if they had an existing business or they were starting 1?

Not after a while, but it sure helps at the beginning to walk into an established, successful business.

 

[bradleyelectric]

2 years, you can fake it for 2 years in a good economy. You can't change the focus of a company successfully without applying sound business principles whether you walked into it or created it.

 

[flyboy]

Allow me to set the record straight

Allow me to set the record straight

I think that is pretty arrogant considering you "walked" into a family business. Yes I know you changed the focus from electrical to A/C and plumbing. Not all of us are so fortunate. Many of us started with nothing and struggle to make it work.

I did not "walk" into the family business. I started the family business in 1986 from scratch, with nothing, only me, my hand tools, no customers and with a used 1977 Chevy van I bought from the telephone company. I incorporated in 1987 as Jones Electric, Inc. I hired my first employee in the same year.

In 1995 to better reflect the new business mix and to take advantage of the new tax advantages of the newly available LLC law, I formed the entity Jones Services Company, LLC.

I did work for my father from 1980 until 1986 in New Jersey, 45 miles away from where I live. It was just the two of us, but we didn't see eye to eye on our goals for the future of the company. I left with nothing but my hand tools and started my company, in my market from scratch. I took off the tool belt for the last time in 1994.

Oh, by the way, I had to start all over again in 1990 because I went bankrupt, both corporately and personally because I took jobs I never should have taken because of my lack of business knowledge (real arrogance and ignorance I assure you). I paid back all my creditors within 5 years.

There's more to the story, but I won't waste your time with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get you think differently about me. If you think I'm arrogant, so be it.

I just wanted to clear the air about the walking into the "family business" thing and set the record straight.

Cheers

 

[fridaymean]

I did not "walk" into the family business. I started the family business in 1986 from scratch, with nothing, only me, my hand tools, no customers and with a used 1977 Chevy van I bought from the telephone company. I incorporated in 1987 as Jones Electric, Inc. I hired my first employee in the same year.

In 1995 to better reflect the new business mix and to take advantage of the new tax advantages of the newly available LLC law, I formed the entity Jones Services Company, LLC.

I did work for my father from 1980 until 1986 in New Jersey, 45 miles away from where I live. It was just the two of us, but we didn't see eye to eye on our goals for the future of the company. I left with nothing but my hand tools and started my company, in my market from scratch. I took off the tool belt for the last time in 1994.

Oh, by the way, I had to start all over again in 1990 because I went bankrupt, both corporately and personally because I took jobs I never should have taken because of my lack of business knowledge (real arrogance and ignorance I assure you). I paid back all my creditors within 5 years.

There's more to the story, but I won't waste your time with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get you think differently about me. If you think I'm arrogant, so be it.

I just wanted to clear the air about the walking into the "family business" thing and set the record straight.

Cheers

I do apr3eciate you willingness to share....you are doing it for the benefit of others.

Facts are facts.......

 

[flyboy]

If someone practices solid business principles would it make a big difference if they had an existing business or they were starting 1?

Not after a while, but it sure helps at the beginning to walk into an established, successful business.

2 years, you can fake it for 2 years in a good economy. You can't change the focus of a company successfully without applying sound business principles whether you walked into it or created it.

In my view, there does come a time, early on in ones career, when you are faced with a decision. What do I want to do? Do I want to continue to work with the tools or do I want to learn how to run and grow a business?

If it?s the latter, you might need to take off the tool belt for awhile. If it?s the former, then you'll need to hire the right people to grow the business and implement the systems and process that make it possible for those people to succeed. It?s not an easy task, but, in my view, the key to success. The sooner the aspiring entrepreneur realizes this and gets started the sooner success will come.

For me, in the beginning, I really liked working in the field. While in the field I was reading everything I could get my hands on about the contracting business and self development.

Finally, I realized that there was just too much to do back at the office for me to be in the field. So, after 9 years in business, in the field, I took off the tool belt. I had no management or leadership skills, no administrative, computer, or typing skills, but I had a strong desire to succeed. I made every mistake you can think of. It was very difficult to let go and trust people to do things. I micromanaged everyone and created a culture of frustration and tension. It was like a revolving door for several years.

It wasn?t for another 6 or 7 years of struggling to exist in this business that I realized the importance of hiring the absolute best people you can find. It wasn't until I started to hire and train the right people that things began to turn around. The team we have today, from our service, administration, warehouse, sales & marketing managers to our field personnel are all ?A? players. They are better at what they do then I could ever be. It was when I became comfortable with hiring people that where better at what they do then I could ever be is when things really started to improve.

Hiring people who are better than you at doing things you?re not good at, putting systems and processes backed with job descriptions, a culture of winning by doing the best job for our customers and then getting out of their way was the key to our success.

 

[mivey]

2 years, you can fake it for 2 years in a good economy.

I'm not sure how long you could fake it. I have seen children destroy their parent's hard work in less time than that.

You can't change the focus of a company successfully without applying sound business principles whether you walked into it or created it.

That's why I think that walking in or creating would make little difference after a while.

Sounds like flyboy created his own, learned some hard lessons, and used those lessons to be a real success.

 

[flyboy]

One man/woman shops

One man/woman shops

By the way, I know (2) one truck EC shops that are very successful. I've seen their income statements and balance sheets as proof of this. They are priced for profit, pay themselves a salary, have very little debt, pay cash for everything and take very little risk. Neither of them do new construction or bid & spec work. All service work.

Both are heavely invested in real estate for the future when they are no longer able to do the physical work.

You don't have to have a large company to be successful in my view.

 

[dbuckley]

There's more to the story, but I won't waste your time with it.

Please do; some of us (ok, I can only speak for myself!) are interested.

 

[gadfly56]

I know times are tough, but it just blows my mind....
Just came back from an opening bids for electrical work for a city we did work for last 10 years.
The bid request was set like this:
Price 1,500 hrs of work @ equal total.
Price 40 hrs of OT @ equal total
Price $ 8,000.00 material cost @ plus profit, overhead, etc, equal total.
No travelling allowed.

I had my bid at 95K which was basically unchanged for what we had 10 years ago.

Now, most of this work will be 1-20hrs deals, as for anything over 5K value or so they'll go for a competitive bid.
I just couldn't believe as about 4 bids were at 60K.
I mean that's about $ 34/hr with 10% profit. How does anyone think they can make any money, or even break even at those rates?
I mean keep in mind, these are basically service calls of mostly 1-5 hrs. I know handy men who charge more than that without a license, insurance, anything. Heck, I wouldn't moonlight for less than $30.00/hr
On the bright side, there were 5-6 more than me and 3-4 around my bid, so least I know I'm still competitive with the serious companies. And I know the city is not stupid enough to award to those 60K bids, but it still make me wonder.

Getting back on topic...

Strife, I don't know where you are, but doesn't your state have a prevailing wage law? Here in NJ, you'd be paying a journeyman $80+ an hour, forget about charging $50 an hour. For a municipality the magic number is about $11,900. Any contract over that triggers the prevailing wage statute.

 

[LarryFine]

Here in NJ, you'd be paying a journeyman $80+ an hour,...

Really????

 

[gadfly56]

Really????

Sorry, foreman. But if you have only one man on the job, he gets the foreman's rate. W = wages, B = benefits, T = total. You can take credits for some benefits you provide such as vacation time and employer-paid portion of health insurance premiums, but in the end the total has to come out to "T"

NEW JERSEY DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT
PREVAILING WAGE RATE DETERMINATION
County - PASSAIC
Craft: Electrician PREVAILING WAGE RATE

Cable Splicer
W 51.66
B 29.29
T 80.95

Foreman
W 52.59
B 29.82
T 82.41

Journeyman
W 46.96
B 26.64
T 73.60

Effective Date: 05/31/10
Expiration Date: 05/30/2011

THESE RATES ALSO APPLY TO THE FOLLOWING:
-All burglar and fire alarm work.
-All fiber optic work.
-Teledata work in new construction.
-Teledata work involving 16 Voice/Data Lines or more.

The regular workday shall be 8 hours, between 8:00 AM and 4:30 PM.

FOREMAN REQUIREMENTS:
- On any job where there is only 1 Journeyman electrician, who lays out his or her own job from plans, that electrician
shall receive the Foreman rate.
- On any job where there are 1 to 10 Journeymen electricians, 1 shall be designated a Foreman.

SHIFT DIFFERENTIALS:
- Shift work must run for a minimum of 5 consecutive workdays.
- 2nd Shift (4:30 PM to 12:30 AM) shall receive 8 hours pay for 7.5 hours work + an additional 10% of the regular rate, per hour, inclusive of benefits.
- 3rd Shift (12:30 AM to 8:00 AM) shall receive 8 hours pay for 7 hours work + an additional 15% of the regular rate, per
hour, inclusive of benefits.

OVERTIME:
Hours in excess of 8 per day, or outside of the regular workday, Monday through Friday, and all hours on Saturdays, shall
be paid at time and one-half the regular rate, inclusive of benefits. All hours on Sundays and holidays shall be paid at
double the regular rate, inclusive of benefits.

RECOGNIZED HOLIDAYS: New Year's Day, Presidents' Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Presidential Election
Day, Veterans' Day, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Day.

 

[LarryFine]

Nice. Anyone hiring?