al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Funny or not. . . the neutral at a switch makes it harder to deny. . .:roll:
For 2014: Neutrals and Switches
- Thread starter renosteinke
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That's not the case for requiring the neutral. There's a large number of electronic switches that require a neutral to function. While those may be considered an outlet, the reason for the neutral requirement is to prevent using the grounding conductor for a grounding one.
The presence of a neutral in the box does not make a switch an outlet..... If it's not hooked up to the neutral, then it's not an outlet.... 2008, 2011 or 2014 NEC.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Just one poke, Ken, and then I'll be quiet.
I can give you four specific (2008, 2011) Code citations that say an outlet occurs in a snap switch when the snap switch is used as a controller.
That is, the Article 100 Definitions of Premises Wiring (System), Controller, Outlet, and 404.14
You obliquely say the 2008, 2011 and 2014 NECs support you . . .:-?
I can give you four specific (2008, 2011) Code citations that say an outlet occurs in a snap switch when the snap switch is used as a controller.
That is, the Article 100 Definitions of Premises Wiring (System), Controller, Outlet, and 404.14
You obliquely say the 2008, 2011 and 2014 NECs support you . . .:-?
I see nothing in the defs of Premises wiring, controller, outlet and 404.14 to support a switch being an outlet.
If you say the definition of premise wiring includes switches as an outlet, then EVERYTHING is an outlet..... splices, cables, cable trays, MCCs, NM cable sheath, breakers, bus bars, VFDs, neutral connections, EMT, doorbell buttons, service drop/lateral, meter socket, etc.
Definition of controller does not contain the word outlet, nor does 404.14. Art. 404 only contains the word 'outlet' once.... 404.2(A).
And the definition of an outlet does not refer to switches, IMPO. If you think it does, then I refer you to the second sentence of this post.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
You obliquely say the 2008, 2011 and 2014 NECs support you . . .:-?
- Location
- Massachusetts
I will add that IF the CMP wanted AFCI protection to apply to all circuits they would not even used the word outlets. The only reason to use the word outlet in 210.12 is to leave switch boxes out of the AFCI requirements. (IMPO)
- Location
- Massachusetts
Lets forget about what the words say for just one minute.
Is it your belief that the CMP wants switches to be considered outlets?
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Only the CMP can tell us what they "want" or intend.
As manufacturers release "switches" with neutrals, it becomes harder to deny that the "switch" doesn't utilize electric energy.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
By saying . . . .:-?
How much more energy does the neutral side of the switch utilize as opposed to the ungrounded side?
I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say.
Switches are outlets?
Switches are outlets if there's a neutral in the box?
Switches are outlets if they are hooked to the neutral?
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
You are dodging my question. You claim the 2008, 2010 & 2014 NECs say . . . :-?I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Sorry. I don't understand how you think an ungrounded side or a neutral side utilizes energy.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
C'mon Ken, you obliquely say the entire 2008, 2010 and 2014 NECs support you . . . give me a citation.
Asked and answered.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
OK. The last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) tells us that the wiring internal to a controller is not part of the Premises Wiring (System).
404.14(A) tells us that a snap switch is suitable for "controlling".
The apparatus that is controlled takes current when utilizing electric energy.
This utilization equipment current, in order to pass internally thru the switch, must pass a point where the current is taken from the Premises Wiring (System).
This point is an Outlet.
404.14(A) tells us that a snap switch is suitable for "controlling".
The apparatus that is controlled takes current when utilizing electric energy.
This utilization equipment current, in order to pass internally thru the switch, must pass a point where the current is taken from the Premises Wiring (System).
This point is an Outlet.
So is a switch a device or not?
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Sure. .
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