For 2014: Neutrals and Switches

Status
Not open for further replies.
jwelectric said:
I think it is a simple case of people not wanting to call a switch an outlet so the NEC mandated a neutral be installed to settle the argument. Now there is no question that a switch is an outlet.
Click to expand...
Funny or not. . . the neutral at a switch makes it harder to deny. . .:roll:
 
jwelectric said:
I think it is a simple case of people not wanting to call a switch an outlet so the NEC mandated a neutral be installed to settle the argument. Now there is no question that a switch is an outlet.

Now tell me you don't think that was funny
Click to expand...

That's not the case for requiring the neutral. There's a large number of electronic switches that require a neutral to function. While those may be considered an outlet, the reason for the neutral requirement is to prevent using the grounding conductor for a grounding one.

The presence of a neutral in the box does not make a switch an outlet..... If it's not hooked up to the neutral, then it's not an outlet.... 2008, 2011 or 2014 NEC.
 
:)
480sparky said:
The presence of a neutral in the box does not make a switch an outlet..... If it's not hooked up to the neutral, then it's not an outlet.... 2008, 2011 or 2014 NEC.
Click to expand...
Just one poke, Ken, and then I'll be quiet.

I can give you four specific (2008, 2011) Code citations that say an outlet occurs in a snap switch when the snap switch is used as a controller.

That is, the Article 100 Definitions of Premises Wiring (System), Controller, Outlet, and 404.14

You obliquely say the 2008, 2011 and 2014 NECs support you . . .:-?
 
al hildenbrand said:
:)Just one poke, Ken, and then I'll be quiet.

I can give you four specific (2008, 2011) Code citations that say an outlet occurs in a snap switch when the snap switch is used as a controller.

That is, the Article 100 Definitions of Premises Wiring (System), Controller, Outlet, and 404.14

You obliquely say the 2008, 2011 and 2014 NECs support you . . .:-?
Click to expand...

I see nothing in the defs of Premises wiring, controller, outlet and 404.14 to support a switch being an outlet.

If you say the definition of premise wiring includes switches as an outlet, then EVERYTHING is an outlet..... splices, cables, cable trays, MCCs, NM cable sheath, breakers, bus bars, VFDs, neutral connections, EMT, doorbell buttons, service drop/lateral, meter socket, etc.

Definition of controller does not contain the word outlet, nor does 404.14. Art. 404 only contains the word 'outlet' once.... 404.2(A).

And the definition of an outlet does not refer to switches, IMPO. If you think it does, then I refer you to the second sentence of this post.
 
480sparky said:
I see nothing in the defs of Premises wiring, controller, outlet and 404.14 to support a switch being an outlet.

If you say the definition of premise wiring includes switches as an outlet, then EVERYTHING is an outlet..... splices, cables, cable trays, MCCs, NM cable sheath, breakers, bus bars, VFDs, neutral connections, EMT, doorbell buttons, service drop/lateral, meter socket, etc.

Definition of controller does not contain the word outlet, nor does 404.14. Art. 404 only contains the word 'outlet' once.... 404.2(A).

And the definition of an outlet does not refer to switches, IMPO. If you think it does, then I refer you to the second sentence of this post.
Click to expand...

I will add that IF the CMP wanted AFCI protection to apply to all circuits they would not even used the word outlets. The only reason to use the word outlet in 210.12 is to leave switch boxes out of the AFCI requirements. (IMPO)
 
iwire said:
Is it your belief that the CMP wants switches to be considered outlets?
Click to expand...
Only the CMP can tell us what they "want" or intend.

As manufacturers release "switches" with neutrals, it becomes harder to deny that the "switch" doesn't utilize electric energy.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Only the CMP can tell us what they "want" or intend.

As manufacturers release "switches" with neutrals, it becomes harder to deny that the "switch" doesn't utilize electric energy.
Click to expand...

How much more energy does the neutral side of the switch utilize as opposed to the ungrounded side?
 
BillCosby-2.gif

​
 
:) C'mon Ken, you obliquely say the entire 2008, 2010 and 2014 NECs support you . . . give me a citation.
 
OK. The last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) tells us that the wiring internal to a controller is not part of the Premises Wiring (System).

404.14(A) tells us that a snap switch is suitable for "controlling".

The apparatus that is controlled takes current when utilizing electric energy.

This utilization equipment current, in order to pass internally thru the switch, must pass a point where the current is taken from the Premises Wiring (System).

This point is an Outlet.
 
al hildenbrand said:
OK. The last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) tells us that the wiring internal to a controller is not part of the Premises Wiring (System).

404.14(A) tells us that a snap switch is suitable for "controlling".

The apparatus that is controlled takes current when utilizing electric energy.

This utilization equipment current, in order to pass internally thru the switch, must pass a point where the current is taken from the Premises Wiring (System).

This point is an Outlet.
Click to expand...

So is a switch a device or not?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top