Where does it say bath sink receptacles have to be 20 amp

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Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I inspected a bath remodel where he had a GFCI plug next to the sink. He fed this with a 15 amp circuit. The load side of the plug protects the exhaust fan over the shower. There is a 20 amp separate circuit controlling 2 additional plugs which satisfies 210.11. I don't like it but can't find a violation!
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
IMO, that is a violation of 210.11(C)(3), however it is very unclear and has been argued. I have never seen anyone install a 15 amp by the sink. Are the other GFCI receptacles installed by the sink?

If the sole purpose of the GFCI rece. that is 15 amps is for protection of the fan then he could use a dead front GFCI and avoid issues with 210.11
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I inspected a bath remodel where he had a GFCI plug next to the sink. He fed this with a 15 amp circuit. The load side of the plug protects the exhaust fan over the shower. There is a 20 amp separate circuit controlling 2 additional plugs which satisfies 210.11. I don't like it but can't find a violation!

As said it has been argued here in the past. You state that there is a circuit satsfiing 210.11 C 3. Then what is the big deal other than "you dont like it".
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Steve, as long as at least one of the 20a-supplied receptacles is within the 3' rule, it's okay.
 

Steviechia2

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
The other plugs are not within the 3' rule. I have seen the arguments on this. IMO it's okay to have 15 amp plugs in bath as long as you have 20amp sink plugs. Thanks for the help
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I inspected a bath remodel where he had a GFCI plug next to the sink. He fed this with a 15 amp circuit. The load side of the plug protects the exhaust fan over the shower. There is a 20 amp separate circuit controlling 2 additional plugs which satisfies 210.11. I don't like it but can't find a violation!

The other plugs are not within the 3' rule. I have seen the arguments on this. IMO it's okay to have 15 amp plugs in bath as long as you have 20amp sink plugs. Thanks for the help

OK,then you do have a violation. IF the 20amp circuit. meets 210.11 C 3 but it doesn't meet 210.52 D then that is the violation. IF the 20 amp met both requirements then I would say the 15amp was not a problem.
 

jumper

Senior Member
OK,then you do have a violation. IF the 20amp circuit. meets 210.11 C 3 but it doesn't meet 210.52 D then that is the violation. IF the 20 amp met both requirements then I would say the 15amp was not a problem.

If we are going to allow a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp circuit to feed a bathroom, where does it state that the required receptacle for 210.52(D) must be on the 20 amp circuit in 210.11(C)(3). The wording of 210.11(C)(1) and (2) for serving the required or specified receptacles is not there.

210.11(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to
supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall
have no other outlets.

(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle
outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft)
of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet
shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the
basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of
the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the
countertop.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If we are going to allow a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp circuit to feed a bathroom, where does it state that the required receptacle for 210.52(D) must be on the 20 amp circuit in 210.11(C)(3). The wording of 210.11(C)(1) and (2) for serving the required or specified receptacles is not there.


I agree but I would not play that card. :) We can only surmise that they are talking about the required outlets in 210.52(D)
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
If we are going to allow a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp circuit to feed a bathroom, where does it state that the required receptacle for 210.52(D) must be on the 20 amp circuit in 210.11(C)(3). The wording of 210.11(C)(1) and (2) for serving the required or specified receptacles is not there.

I agree but I would not play that card. :) We can only surmise that they are talking about the required outlets in 210.52(D)

I was waiting for this:) 210.2 OTHER ARTICLES FOR SPECIFIC-PROPOSE BRANCH CIRCUITS. Shall comply with this article and applicable provisions of other articles of this code.............

By this if there is a dedicated 20amp circt. installed for the bath and that circt. has a recpt. with in 3ft of the sink you have met 210.11 C 3 and 210.52 D.
 

jumper

Senior Member
I was waiting for this:) 210.2 OTHER ARTICLES FOR SPECIFIC-PROPOSE BRANCH CIRCUITS. Shall comply with this article and applicable provisions of other articles of this code.............

By this if there is a dedicated 20amp circt. installed for the bath and that circt. has a recpt. with in 3ft of the sink you have met 210.11 C 3 and 210.52 D.

I gotta think about this.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Write a proposal for 2014. I believe it is long overdo.

From the 2011 ROP:

2-149 Log #3569 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.11(C)(3))
Submitter: George M. Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits
required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit
shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(D). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Substantiation: A code-minimum installation calls for a receptacle installed
within 3 ft of a bathroom sink, served by a circuit dedicated for that purpose.
When someone adds a voluntary and permitted receptacle for lighting or other
purposes in the bathroom above and beyond the minimum expectations of the
NEC, there is no reason to consider them the required bathroom receptacles
that are required to be served from the required circuit.
As the text currently stands, it can be interpreted that every circuit that serves
a receptacle in the bathroom (regardless of the designer?s intent for that circuit)
must be served from a 20A circuit that serves only bathrooms.
This would have no impact on GFCI requirements as posed by other sections.
It would serve to clarify the section and the minimum code-required
receptacles it should be referencing. The proposed language would also serve
to isolate the required receptacles from other loads away from the sinks, if this
effect is undesirable an exception permitting other receptacles inside the
bathroom to be served would counteract that. Additional receptacle outlets
installed to meet design criteria need not meet the requirements of this article.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The current rule permits the 20A bathroom circuit to supply
all receptacle outlets installed in the bathroom, whether they are installed to
meet 210.52(D) or are in addition to the ones required by 210.52(D). The
submitters notation that every receptacle outlet in the bathroom must be
supplied from a 20A bathroom branch circuit is correct and is intended by the
panel. However, there is no limitation on the number of 20A branch circuits
that can be used in the bathroom.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
2-150 Log #3617 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.11(C)(3) Exception No. 2 (New) )
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Terrence V. Wendt, City of Omaha
Recommendation: Add new text to read as follows:
Exception 2. In addition to the required receptacles specified in 210.11(C)(3)
and lighting outlets required in 210.70(A)(1), General-purpose branch circuit
receptacles shall be permitted.
Substantiation: Bathrooms are getting larger and turning into relaxation
centers with televisions, rope light, and more. By allowing general purpose
circuits to feed receptacles other than the basin outlets you can alleviate
unnecessary load on the required 20 amp bathroom circuit.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel does not agree that general purpose branch
circuits should be used to supply receptacle outlets in the bathroom. The
devices described in the substantiation can be supplied from the 20A branch
circuit, or an additional 20A branch circuit can be installed to pick up these
receptacles. In either case, the 20A circuit is required to be dedicated to the
bathroom(s).
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
_______________________________________________________________
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I guess that answers that. No 15 amp receptacle circuits in the bathroom. So as I said in post #3 -- IMO, a violation....
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
So now do a proposal that all recep. in a bath 125v must be gfci and connected to a 20 amp circuit- just to clarify.
 
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