Pool Rookie

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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
My customer is having a makeover for their in-ground pool. A lot of cosmetic stuff like removing and replacing the decking and coping, fence replacement, all new landscaping and moving the filter to the opposite end of the pool.

I have done almost no previous work on pools so I thought I would run it by you guys and gals.

The filter pump is fed from a 2p 20 in a subpanel in the garage next to the main panel. That subpanel also has a 1p 15 gfci breaker for the pool receptacle. Each is fed with underground PVC. The owner wants the pump relocated to the opposite end of the pool behind an existing shed and the receptacle to be mounted on the shed.

Can I cut into the existing PVC conduits and use an inground flower pot JB to intercept and extend the wiring to the new locations?

Can I run the new circuits to the shed and then run through the shed to get to the pump? I also want to put a time clock in the shed for the pump.

Will the pump now have to be on a gfci breaker? It isn't now.

How close to the pool can the conduits be run? I want to run them in the same trench as the pool contractors new water pipes to save on trenching.

I assume I will have to find the buried #8 solid and attach it to the pump at its new location.

What is this pool rookie overlooking?
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
My customer is having a makeover for their in-ground pool. A lot of cosmetic stuff like removing and replacing the decking and coping, fence replacement, all new landscaping and moving the filter to the opposite end of the pool.

I have done almost no previous work on pools so I thought I would run it by you guys and gals.

The filter pump is fed from a 2p 20 in a subpanel in the garage next to the main panel. That subpanel also has a 1p 15 gfci breaker for the pool receptacle. Each is fed with underground PVC. The owner wants the pump relocated to the opposite end of the pool behind an existing shed and the receptacle to be mounted on the shed.

Can I cut into the existing PVC conduits and use an inground flower pot JB to intercept and extend the wiring to the new locations?

Will the pump now have to be on a gfci breaker? It isn't now.

How close to the pool can the conduits be run? I want to run them in the same trench as the pool contractors new water pipes to save on trenching.

I assume I will have to find the buried #8 solid and attach it to the pump at its new location.

What is this pool rookie overlooking?

....its a 15 or 20 amp ckt., just cut and extend the conduit to new location and pull new wires from panel.
...that assumption is correct
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The filter pump is fed from a 2p 20 in a subpanel in the garage next to the main panel. That subpanel also has a 1p 15 gfci breaker for the pool receptacle. Each is fed with underground PVC. The owner wants the pump relocated to the opposite end of the pool behind an existing shed and the receptacle to be mounted on the shed.

Can I cut into the existing PVC conduits and use an inground flower pot JB to intercept and extend the wiring to the new locations?
Why would you need a jb? Can you not just continue the conduit or would that create too many turns. I guess an approved jb would be compliant but I would not want one in my yard. Not sure what a flower pot JB looks like.

Can I run the new circuits to the shed and then run through the shed to get to the pump? I also want to put a time clock in the shed for the pump.
Yes

Will the pump now have to be on a gfci breaker? It isn't now.
Yes

How close to the pool can the conduits be run? I want to run them in the same trench as the pool contractors new water pipes to save on trenching.
Art. 680.10 5 feet with exceptions

I assume I will have to find the buried #8 solid and attach it to the pump at its new location.
The equipotential bonding-- yes

What is this pool rookie overlooking?
Unless there is lights in the pool I would say you are good.
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Why would you need a jb? Can you not just continue the conduit or would that create too many turns. I guess an approved jb would be compliant but I would not want one in my yard. Not sure what a flower pot JB looks like.

Yes

Yes

Art. 680.10 5 feet with exceptions

The equipotential bonding-- yes

Unless there is lights in the pool I would say you are good.

No Pool light. THe conduit runs would likely exceed 360 degrees without the JB. I won't know until the trench is dug. Around here we call underground JB's flower pots because of their shape. I don't want to have to put a JB on a post so I'm looking to use the flower pot type that is flush with the lawn. I wasn't sure if they are OK near a pool.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
My customer is having a makeover for their in-ground pool. A lot of cosmetic stuff like removing and replacing the decking and coping, fence replacement, all new landscaping and moving the filter to the opposite end of the pool.

I assume I will have to find the buried #8 solid and attach it to the pump at its new location.

What is this pool rookie overlooking?

I'll just add one thing to clarify or further specify what Dennis already mentioned in passing. Finding the #8 solid is one thing you will have to do, but if they are replacing the decking, you will have to install or supervise installation of the equipotential bonding grid. A reputable pool company might get it right, if they're the ones doing the decking, but who knows? Many think they are doing it right, but are doing the work according to a previous code cycle.

As the electrician of record, you are where the buck stops, and the #8 AWG solid copper starts. ie: Did they bond to metal structure of the sidewalls (if it is not a poured wall)? Was the rebar bonded as described in NEC art. 680? Or was other appropriate grid and bonding installed?

And FWIW, I don't think I'd want that flower pot box in my yard, either. I'm thinking your customer has the money, just do the additional work and bill accordingly.
 
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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I'll just add one thing to clarify or further specify what Dennis already mentioned in passing. Finding the #8 solid is one thing you will have to do, but if they are replacing the decking, you will have to install or supervise installation of the equipotential bonding grid. A reputable pool company might get it right, if they're the ones doing the decking, but who knows? Many think they are doing it right, but are doing the work according to a previous code cycle.

As the electrician of record, you are where the buck stops, and the #8 AWG solid copper starts. ie: Did they bond to metal structure of the sidewalls (if it is not a poured wall)? Was the rebar bonded as described in NEC art. 680? Or was other appropriate grid and bonding installed?.

It did not occur to me that the new decking would require any additional bonding. Is it really that clear that the code requires a new grid on an old pool?

The new information is twofold. One, the owner called and said they decided not to move the pump or the receptacle. In essence they are declining to make any electrical changes.

Two, the pool renovation company just informed the owner that the pool is NOT grounded. The pool guy has removed the original decking and has excavated to run some new filter lines. When he did not find a bare #8 anywhere he determined the pool was never grounded.

So, here are my questions: If new concrete decking is going to be replaced at an existing pool does it require any additional bonding that may not have been required in an older pool?

When it is declared that a pool is not grounded what would be a good way to determine that that is accurate? Shouldn't the existing pump have a bare #8 sticking up out of the ground and connecting to the pump? Should I expect to see the #8 anywhere else?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
So, here are my questions: If new concrete decking is going to be replaced at an existing pool does it require any additional bonding that may not have been required in an older pool?

My question is why wouldn't you do it even if not required to do so? Especially if you are essentially starting over with the decking. Repairing a small section of it would be a whole different game.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
It is interesting that the graphic was done in 2001 and then Mike changed it to exclude the metal window frames and doors. Now, according to the 2011 the windows and frames must be bonded-- it makes no sense to me esp. for the window.

I watched a video of Mike poking fun at that graphic, in his opinion its not what the NEC ever intended, purposely energizing a metal window frame makes so sense at all IMO....
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I watched a video of Mike poking fun at that graphic, in his opinion its not what the NEC ever intended, purposely energizing a metal window frame makes so sense at all IMO....
I saw it also- in fact you posted the link recently-- good but very long video on stray voltage.
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
My question is why wouldn't you do it even if not required to do so? Especially if you are essentially starting over with the decking. Repairing a small section of it would be a whole different game.

The difference is that if it is required by code I will tell them it has to be done, and if not I will reccommend it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The difference is that if it is required by code I will tell them it has to be done, and if not I will reccommend it.

I see it as not much different than replacing a non GFCI protected receptacle that is now required to be GFCI protected or even should have been at time of original installation. Tearing out the decking and putting in new - shouldn't the new be brought up to current standards? This is not really a repair, it is a new install of a major component of the pool.

Another analogy may be lifting a building and putting a new foundation under it. Wouldn't the new foundation be required to meet current codes in most places? Probably including a CEE if there is sufficient rebar in the footing for a CEE?

Again, if an AHJ will be involved they should be consulted if there is any question.
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I see it as not much different than replacing a non GFCI protected receptacle that is now required to be GFCI protected or even should have been at time of original installation. Tearing out the decking and putting in new - shouldn't the new be brought up to current standards? This is not really a repair, it is a new install of a major component of the pool.

Another analogy may be lifting a building and putting a new foundation under it. Wouldn't the new foundation be required to meet current codes in most places? Probably including a CEE if there is sufficient rebar in the footing for a CEE?

Again, if an AHJ will be involved they should be consulted if there is any question.

Well, there is a question. Is the grid required under the new decking? So far nobody on this forum has taken a position. I have no idea and that is why I am asking that question and a couple others.

When it is declared that a pool is not grounded what would be a good way to determine that that is accurate? Shouldn't the existing pump have a bare #8 sticking up out of the ground and connecting to the pump? Should I expect to see the #8 anywhere else?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Well, there is a question. Is the grid required under the new decking? So far nobody on this forum has taken a position. I have no idea and that is why I am asking that question and a couple others.

When it is declared that a pool is not grounded what would be a good way to determine that that is accurate? Shouldn't the existing pump have a bare #8 sticking up out of the ground and connecting to the pump? Should I expect to see the #8 anywhere else?
I will say I do not work on pools, and never have besides provide power to a few portable pools or to hot tubs.

After more thinking, I am not sure what to tell you as I can see some problems either way (installing a ground grid in new decking vs. not doing so).

Some of the answers may be more clear knowing what else is there and how accessible, or easy it will be to be able to bond other items if they are not already bonded.

The purpose of equipotential bonding as required by 680.26 is to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area. By introducing a bonded object to an area that has no other bonded objects that otherwise would be required if the entire installation was new could actually create more voltage gradients than if you left it as it was. I think if you were to install bonding to the decking you should also bond everything else mentioned in 680.26 The important thing is to minimize touch potential for people using the pool. Bonding one area to electrical system and not another will subject someone to any voltage drop that is on the service neutral which would otherwise be considered normal.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
Well, there is a question. Is the grid required under the new decking? So far nobody on this forum has taken a position. I have no idea and that is why I am asking that question and a couple others.

When it is declared that a pool is not grounded what would be a good way to determine that that is accurate? Shouldn't the existing pump have a bare #8 sticking up out of the ground and connecting to the pump? Should I expect to see the #8 anywhere else?

Hi. I'm back after a good long weekend [working]. It's called Labor Day! Anyway, I'll take a position: the Deck must be bonded to make the whole thing an equipotential grid. The #8, IMO, should be used to bond all the electro/mechanicals of the pool where metal and/or electrical. This must then also be bonded to the concrete decking, and to the equipment ground system in the building from which the electric is served.

I don't see any other way to do it, and sleep at night. Plus, as they say, it's a code issue. The Deck bond is a safety issue, hands down.

The only way to determine that a pool is not grounded would be if it was up in the air. That being said, we're really not concerned with the "grounding" but the continuous bond of all components that require such bonding. This is so that if there were a failure of an electrical component, or worse (for an example) if someone dropped a non-GFCI protected extention cord end into the pool, or left it fraying on the wet deck, the dangers would be minimized.

So the answer to your question, "Was the deck bonded and were the pool walls (concrete, plaster, or steel) bonded?" would to check to see any leftover #8 AWG coming back from those areas to complete a bond to the EGC. If you can't find it, your determination is that it's not there. I've been a part of projects where at that point the jack hammer comes out and the connection is made to the rebar.

I wouldn't worry about the costs. Some of this type of work can cost as much as the above ground power work. The customer wants a safe, code-compliant installation. Our job is to provide it.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hi. I'm back after a good long weekend [working].

The only way to determine that a pool is not grounded would be if it was up in the air. That being said, we're really not concerned with the "grounding" but the continuous bond of all components that require such bonding. This is so that if there were a failure of an electrical component, or worse (for an example) if someone dropped a non-GFCI protected extention cord end into the pool, or left it fraying on the wet deck, the dangers would be minimized.

I think the dangers are more likely to come from voltage drop in the service neutral or even from the POCO MGN. Maybe worse yet an open / high resistance service neutral. The fact that the pool and all the surrounding conductive surfaces are at ground potential and the grounding/bonding conductors are also connected to the grounded service conductor there is a risk of being some potential between all those conductive surfaces and the grounding conductors which will inherently be connected to something that may be in close proximity to the other objects. By bonding everything together you bring them all to the same potential therefore there could be current flowing through all of it but the pool users are much safer than if it is not all bonded and there is voltage gradients around different objects.

Dropping a non GFCI protected into the pool probably creates the same hazard whether the pool has proper bonding installed or not. You are placing 120 volts to ground in water that is grounded well enough that the current flow is about the same either way.

The bonding to reduce voltage gradients is there to keep one object from being zero volts to ground and another one within reach from being 3, 5, 20, 50, or whatever to volts to ground, instead they are both the same and you can not actually touch something that is not the same potential even if it is above true earth potential.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
I think the dangers are more likely to come from voltage drop in the service neutral or even from the POCO MGN. Maybe worse yet an open / high resistance service neutral. The fact that the pool and all the surrounding conductive surfaces are at ground potential and the grounding/bonding conductors are also connected to the grounded service conductor there is a risk of being some potential between all those conductive surfaces and the grounding conductors which will inherently be connected to something that may be in close proximity to the other objects. By bonding everything together you bring them all to the same potential therefore there could be current flowing through all of it but the pool users are much safer than if it is not all bonded and there is voltage gradients around different objects.

Dropping a non GFCI protected into the pool probably creates the same hazard whether the pool has proper bonding installed or not. You are placing 120 volts to ground in water that is grounded well enough that the current flow is about the same either way.

The bonding to reduce voltage gradients is there to keep one object from being zero volts to ground and another one within reach from being 3, 5, 20, 50, or whatever to volts to ground, instead they are both the same and you can not actually touch something that is not the same potential even if it is above true earth potential.

good point. yes, the failed POCO grounded conductor is the worst case scenario.
 
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