AFCI 1000 watt dimming Max

[Dennis Alwon]

I just got off the phone with Lutron tech and they verified that no circuit should have 1000 watts of dimming load on an afci. You could have 800 watts of dimming load and the other 7 amps of none dimming load and it is fine. So I knew this with the homeworks but they say it is true for all circuits.

I doubt I ever had this issue since 1000 watts on one circuit dimmed would be unusual for me but it is something to remember.


I might add that all Lutrons PDF's are on dimming panels and homeworks. I have seen nothing to support the techs statement.

 

[infinity]

I was told about this problem yesterday in a CEU class. I didn't know if the story had any traction.

 

[George Stolz]

I do not have a pdf that is why I want those with first hand info to chime in.
I found a link below but that is it.


http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=8936


Hey if I was Siemens I would not admit to such... So I really don't expect to find a PDF

I will email Mark Ode and get his input on this.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I will email Mark Ode and get his input on this.

Again this article seems to be addressing dimming modules- part of homeworks type system.

 

[PetrosA]

I haven't done many 1500W dimmers in resi, but I have used them. It was before the '08 code was in effect here, so the circuit wasn't on AFCI. I also can't imagine the customer would have been happy to hear that the 11 Iris recessed lights in his kitchen would have to be split among two dimmers...

 

[ELA]

A potential nuisance trip may actually be more likely to occur if multiple dimmers are being used (on same circuit) when set at various different on levels.

If the total load is higher than the 5 amps minimum (series arc detection) and multiple dimmers are causing noise currents at varying parts of the sinewave, this begins to mimic the arc signature even better. The dimmer's sharp rise time coupled with multiple units turning on at various time offsets, over the width of the half wave, produces a pretty harsh broadband noise profile.

 

[svh19044]

I stated the same thing in another thread, but I will do so again here.

Very RARELY will you have a room (or multiple rooms on same circuit) outside of the kitchen that has 1000w of dimming load. This will not be a common issue to come across, however annoying it is.

Nowhere in the NEC does it state that the kitchen needs AFCI protection for outlets, so you put a non-afci dedicated lighting circuit in the kitchen and avoid 99% of this particular problem (1% being the rare occurrence that outside of the residential kitchen you need to dim 1000w).

I don't remember the last time that I did a kitchen that didn't have it's own lighting circuit anyway, and I can't think of any instances outside of the kitchen in resi that required 1000w+ to be dimmed.

While it is a problem and a potential issue, I don't think it's as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. The reason it is not talked about much is because it is "usually" NOT an issue, and not everyone here routinely works in this area where it would be an issue. However, I don't know why some are in denial that it is an issue, as stated by the lighting control manufacturers.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate it.


i can certanly see 1000w of dimming load with multiple switch legs here in California with all the dimmers being installed to comply with the Title 24. Boy just one dining room light with 700 watts
and 6 living room can lights and you are over that 1k threshold.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I just got off the phone with Lutron tech and they verified that no circuit should have 1000 watts of dimming load on an afci. You could have 800 watts of dimming load and the other 7 amps of none dimming load and it is fine. So I knew this with the homeworks but they say it is true for all circuits.

I doubt I ever had this issue since 1000 watts on one circuit dimmed would be unusual for me but it is something to remember.




I might add that all Lutrons PDF's are on dimming panels and homeworks. I have seen nothing to support the techs statement.

Wow Lutron was open on a Sunday of MLK holiday Wow....

 

[svh19044]

Thanks for all the input guys. I really appreciate it.


i can certanly see 1000w of dimming load with multiple switch legs here in California with all the dimmers being installed to comply with the Title 24. Boy just one dining room light with 700 watts
and 6 living room can lights and you are over that 1k threshold.

"one" DR chandelier at 700watts? I would question that one...

And 6 LR can lights, 75w=450w sounds "reasonable"

I would venture a guess to say that most DR's don't or won't have 700w in total lighting. To have a 700w chandelier, you are talking about a pretty large dining room, around 500 sq ft, and a very large fixture/table, and that would still be total lighting for the room (not just the chandelier). Consider most decent size DR's in "mcmansions" are about 300 sq ft or LESS, you are closer to 450w max for chandelier lighting, closer to 300w or so. Plus a couple 50w can lights, or sconces, etc, you are going to be hard pressed to get 700w in a DR.

 

[Sierrasparky]

"one" DR chandelier at 700watts? I would question that one...

Really you gonna question a 15 bulb fixture look below

[/QUOTE]

And 6 LR can lights, 75w=450w sounds "reasonable"

I would venture a guess to say that most DR's don't or won't have 700w in total lighting. To have a 700w chandelier, you are talking about a pretty large dining room, around 500 sq ft, and a very large fixture/table. Consider most decent size DR's in "mcmansions" are about 300 sq ft or LESS, you are closer to 450w max for chandelier lighting. Plus a couple 50w can lights, or sconces, etc, you are going to be hard pressed to get 700w in a DR.[/QUOTE]

I had several of my jobs like this, it is very easy. Lots of cabins with High vauted ceilings and lights like this and a energy code to boot. Customers will always opt for the dimmer instead of a vacancy sensor of CFL. Heck I had a small 2000 ft cabin with a 15 lamp antler over Dine table, 2 -4" cans , 2 faux oil lanterns , I track with 3 heads, 1 mono point that was about 1100 watts. Luckily that was prior to 08' implementation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Wow Lutron was open on a Sunday of MLK holiday Wow....

They have great tech support 24/7 and almost every day of the year.

One needs to plan for high wattage fixtures.

 

[svh19044]

And 6 LR can lights, 75w=450w sounds "reasonable"

I would venture a guess to say that most DR's don't or won't have 700w in total lighting. To have a 700w chandelier, you are talking about a pretty large dining room, around 500 sq ft, and a very large fixture/table. Consider most decent size DR's in "mcmansions" are about 300 sq ft or LESS, you are closer to 450w max for chandelier lighting. Plus a couple 50w can lights, or sconces, etc, you are going to be hard pressed to get 700w in a DR.

I had several of my jobs like this, it is very easy. Lots of cabins with High vauted ceilings and lights like this and a energy code to boot. Customers will always opt for the dimmer instead of a vacancy sensor of CFL. Heck I had a small 2000 ft cabin with a 15 lamp antler over Dine table, 2 -4" cans , 2 faux oil lanterns , I track with 3 heads, 1 mono point that was about 1100 watts. Luckily that was prior to 08' implementation.
View attachment 6241

So one of your biggest "lighting" jobs (in regards to dimming load on a single circuit) was 1100 watts max. As I said, it's going to be a rare occurrence. You could have just as easily put in slightly lower wattage bulbs in to the antler chandelier and shaved off the additional 100w, putting you under the 1000w thresh-hold. It wouldn't be a big deal at all to correct the issue. Use a lower wattage bulb in the chandelier, say 25 instead of 40, problem solved. Or 40w in the sconces instead of 60w, and 35w instead of 50w in the track. Not an issue.

And again, either way, it's an annoyance. But it really isn't a huge issue and there are plenty of easy ways to work around it. Use a lower wattage bulb in one or two fixtures and you shave off the extra 100w threshold.

15lamp chandelierx25w (rated at max 40w)=375
Two lanterns x 60w=120
2 4" cans x 50w= 100
3 track lights x 50w=150
1 monopoint x 50w=50

795w

And that's a lot of light for a room, but if it's a cabin reflectivity is low so it's a bit more understandable. Or substitute in 40w for the 25w bulbs in the chandelier, and 40w for the 60w bulbs in the lanterns, and problem solved. Or take the lanterns off a dimmer and use a lower wattage bulb anyway. real easy fix

 

[George Stolz]

I'd like to see this energy code.

 

[Sierrasparky]

There are different sections for different trades. Almost Every trade is subject to something. Now we have the green energy code for new construction. We are regulated to death here. The energy code has been around for many years in CA.
Also new is the fact we have to sign of as the installer that we complied. This paper has a clause that the information is true and correct under penalty of perjury.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2008publications/CEC-400-2008-016/rev1_chapters/RCM_Chapter_6_Lighting.pdf


http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2008standards/residential_manual.html

Have fun reading

 

[Sierrasparky]

So one of your biggest "lighting" jobs (in regards to dimming load on a single circuit) was 1100 watts max.

No that was a small house 2000sqft. Larger homes in the 4-6k sqft have 2 lights like the antler one at 21 lamps 10 cans just in that room. Wood low reflective ceilings. ............ 1000 watts will not cut it. I had a new customer call over the holidays say their dimmer is getting hot in the dine room. I asked how many bulbs , they said 21, so these fixures are pretty common around here.


Oh can't take the lanterns off the dimmer cuz title 24 and unless you can proove that the light is purely decorative and installed in some niche or something that won't work as the lanterns are part of General illumination in the great room.

 

[svh19044]

No that was a small house 2000sqft. Larger homes in the 4-6k sqft have 2 lights like the antler one at 21 lamps 10 cans just in that room. Wood low reflective ceilings. ............ 1000 watts will not cut it. I had a new customer call over the holidays say their dimmer is getting hot in the dine room. I asked how many bulbs , they said 21, so these fixures are pretty common around here.

I just read the lighting PDF for CA, and first, I must say I'm sorry. If it weren't eventually (hopefully not) going to be federal, I would be laughing at you. I guess it's just time to start adding multiple lighting circuits in the design phase for you.

But based on what I just read, I fail to see how you will EVER have a concern with the 1000w "limit" in a new installation. Tell your customers to start getting used to their new ridiculous "laws" and start changing bulbs....wait, I mean entire fixtures so that they aren't medium based screw...over now.

Oh can't take the lanterns off the dimmer cuz title 24 and unless you can proove that the light is purely decorative and installed in some niche or something that won't work as the lanterns are part of General illumination in the great room.

:lol:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I just read the lighting PDF for CA, and first, I must say I'm sorry. If it weren't eventually (hopefully not) going to be federal, I would be laughing at you. I guess it's just time to start adding multiple lighting circuits in the design phase for you.

But based on what I just read, I fail to see how you will EVER have a concern with the 1000w "limit" in a new installation. Tell your customers to start getting used to their new ridiculous "laws" and start changing bulbs....wait, I mean entire fixtures so that they aren't medium based screw...over now.



:lol:

Paleassssssssse!
Tell me how warm and fuzzy one of those antler chandeliers will look with CFL candelabra or LED light. ( Maybe in the future)
Yes I will be doing multiple circuits and obviosly no 20 ampers either.

Hey You wait it's comming to federal mandates, just look at the 100 watt bulb. Look at the reduculousness of Lutrons ECO dimmers. Lutron told me they just clip the max output of the dimmer by like 10% what a joke.

IF the wise tale your grandma talked about don't read in the dark or you'll go blind. I think we will see a lot of blind Californians.

 

[svh19044]

By the way, according to Lutron, they did that 90% BS just to comply with CA. I called once a week for a couple month period complaining about how they needed to do a "non-eco" line (the real eco line has the red LED indicator, but ALL are limited to the 90% output). When I was at their facility, they tried convincing us all how we couldn't tell the difference of 10% anyway. In all fairness, they are probably correct in overall perception, but side by side comparison it certainly is NOT true.

 

[BullsnPyrs]

LED and CFL Flame Tip

LED and CFL Flame Tip

Paleassssssssse!
Tell me how warm and fuzzy one of those antler chandeliers will look with CFL candelabra or LED light. ( Maybe in the future)
Yes I will be doing multiple circuits and obviosly no 20 ampers either.

Hey You wait it's comming to federal mandates, just look at the 100 watt bulb. Look at the reduculousness of Lutrons ECO dimmers. Lutron told me they just clip the max output of the dimmer by like 10% what a joke.

IF the wise tale your grandma talked about don't read in the dark or you'll go blind. I think we will see a lot of blind Californians.

LED http://www.conservationmart.com/p-1863-tcp-3w-dimmable-flame-tip-led-torpedo-ldcf3wh27k.aspx

Clod Cathode CFL http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/e...campaign=Cold-Cathode&infoParam.campaignId=WR