water pipe cut off

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jwelectric

jwelectric

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George Stolz said:
A standard sounds more like an Annex to a code (if the code references it) than a code. It sure looks like the NEC wins in a contest - but you would know better than I. :)
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How many times have we read on this site that the NEC is a permissive document?
How many times have we read on this site that the NEC doesn?t say we can?t then we can?

A Standard on the other hand is not a permissive document but instead it is a mandatory document.
 
rbalex

rbalex

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T.M.Haja Sahib said:
In my opinion,if the code mentions about a standard,then that standard is as enforceable as the code itself.
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Properly cited, I agree; however, the NEC does not reference NFPA 13, with respect to grounding electrodes. Conversely, NFPA 13 subordinates itself to the NEC via Sections 2.1 and 2.2.

In addition, the explanatory material in NFPA 13, Sections A10.6.8 and A10.6.8.1 clearly explains the reasoning behind the grounding electrode "exclusion" in Section 10.6.8. In reality, the UG firewater piping should not be the sole grounding electrode; it is still consistent to comply with the NEC bonding requirements.

jwelectric said:
How many times have we read on this site that the NEC is a permissive document?
How many times have we read on this site that the NEC doesn?t say we can?t then we can?
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You?ve never seen me say either one.

jwelectric said:
...
A Standard on the other hand is not a permissive document but instead it is a mandatory document.
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Again from the Regulations Governing Committee Projects, a ?Code? is an elevated Standard; i.e., it?s still a Standard.

I still have no idea what the totality of "is present" may consist of, but I do know how to properly design a grounding electrode system :D
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

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rbalex said:
Again from the Regulations Governing Committee Projects, a ?Code? is an elevated Standard; i.e., it?s still a Standard.[/QUOTE]

From you link

Code - A standard that is an extensive compilation of provisions covering broad subject matter or that is suitable for adoption into law independently of other codes and standards.
NOTE: The decision whether to designate a standard as a ?code? is based on such factors as the size and scope of the document, its intended use and form of adoption, and whether it contains substantial enforcement and administrative provisions.

Standard - A document, the main text of which contains only mandatory provi­sions using the word ?shall? to indicate requirements and which is in a form gener­ally suitable for mandatory reference by another standard or code or for adoption into law. Nonmandatory provisions shall be located in an appendix or annex, foot­note, or fine-print note and are not to be considered a part of the requirements of a standard.
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rbalex

rbalex

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jwelectric said:
...
I thought it might be appreciated by someone.
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I sincerely appreciated it.

Again sincerely, what I believe would be more helpful within the context of the current discussion (NFPA 13, Section 10.6.8) would be posting Annex A, Sections A.10.6.8 and A.10.6.8.1. I can't do it myself because I don't have the document available in an electronic form that I can "cut and paste" and my typing skills have always been deficient.
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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May I summarize... We have over 100 posts and it seems all we are doing is going around in circles. Mike brought up a point that has some value in that some higher ups believe that any water line on the property must be used as an electrode. It is also possible that a local inspector may feel the same way. As this info get broadcast throughout the community changes may or may not happen. It is good to be aware of theis possiblity and may be worthwhile checking with the AHJ before one gets in a bind.

I really don't think there is any clear cut answr to this situation. As many have stated it would be an unusual situation that may never show it's ugly head. I don't think there is a right and wrong here just a difference of opinion. I tend to side with the concept if the pipe doesn't enter the building then don't worry but it appears there may be more to it than that.


I will not close this thread but I think it has run its course.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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I will steal the last word, though:

jwelectric said:
Am I required to have one?

I just thought it would be nice to post the two definitions so someone would not have to read the entire document to find them.

I thought it might be appreciated by someone.
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I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to say something about them. Apologize if my question sounded abrupt.

Whew! Good discussion! :happyyes:
 
roger

roger

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It appears as though there may be more to be said so I am re-opening the thread.

Roger
 
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