water pipe cut off

[tom2shus]

If a water service is "cut off" outside of the building, will the remaining underground empty water pipe (more than 10' long) still be considered the "water service ground"?

 

[George Stolz]

Can you describe how it's assembled in more detail?

 

[ptonsparky]

I believe the pipe would be considered part of the GES, if it is accessible in the building.

 

[ptonsparky]

With stipulation that it is 10 ft or longer.

 

[John120/240]

So you would be attaching your GEC to a made electrode, right ? You still need a second

electrode. Why not if the AHJ signs off.

 

[Open Neutral]

If a water service is "cut off" outside of the building, will the remaining underground empty water pipe (more than 10' long) still be considered the "water service ground"?

So they pulled the meter, & it was 10+ ft from the house?

Is there a meter bond?

 

[jwelectric]

If a water service is "cut off" outside of the building, will the remaining underground empty water pipe (more than 10' long) still be considered the "water service ground"?

If there is 10 feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth present at the building it must be used as part of the grounding electrode system with or without the meter being installed as long as the meter does not break the 10 feet of metal water pipe. If the meter does break the metal pipe within the ten feet part then a bonding jumper around the meter must be installed. 250.52(A)(1)

Should there be 10 feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth installed at a building but the pipe changes over to a nonmetallic pipe before entering the building that metal water pipe must be used as part of the grounding electrode system.

The first five feet of interior water pipe rule is the grounding path to the electrode not the electrode. This was cleared up in the 2011 code in 250.68(C)(1).

The presence or lack there of does not effect the rule for the electrode

 

[infinity]

If a water service is "cut off" outside of the building, will the remaining underground empty water pipe (more than 10' long) still be considered the "water service ground"?

So he's saying that this is now an abandoned water pipe? If it's abandoned is it still a water pipe electrode?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Should there be 10 feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth installed at a building but the pipe changes over to a nonmetallic pipe before entering the building that metal water pipe must be used as part of the grounding electrode system.
...

If the metal underground water pipe changes to nonmetallic pipe before it enters the building, then the metal pipe is not "present at the building or structure". If the metal pipe is not present at teh building or structure, it is not a required grounding electrode.

 

[jwelectric]

If the metal underground water pipe changes to nonmetallic pipe before it enters the building, then the metal pipe is not "present at the building or structure". If the metal pipe is not present at teh building or structure, it is not a required grounding electrode.

Not wanting to go into a debate but I think the question would be, is that metal water pipe supplying the building and if so then it is part of the building even if it is terminated outside or not.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.



Nowhere does it say that the pipe has to enter the building just be present at the buiding. Such things as ground rings, concrete encased electrodes, rod, pipe or plate electrodes don't enter the building either.

 

[jwelectric]

So he's saying that this is now an abandoned water pipe? If it's abandoned is it still a water pipe electrode?

In my opinion, yes

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Nowhere does it say that the pipe has to enter the building just be present at the buiding. Such things as ground rings, concrete encased electrodes, rod, pipe or plate electrodes don't enter the building either.

I just don't see a water pipe that stops outside of the building as being present at the building.

I read the words present as requiring the pipe to enter the building or be a part of the building...not stop somewhere inside the property line. The rod, pipe or plate electrodes are not electrodes that would be "present at the building or structure". They are made or installed electrodes. The re-bar used as a concrete encased electrode is part of the building and is present at the building.

 

[jwelectric]

I just don't see a water pipe that stops outside of the building as being present at the building.

I read the words present as requiring the pipe to enter the building or be a part of the building...not stop somewhere inside the property line. The rod, pipe or plate electrodes are not electrodes that would be "present at the building or structure". They are made or installed electrodes. The re-bar used as a concrete encased electrode is part of the building and is present at the building.

Your statement contradicts itself. 250.50 explains it.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

It describes all the electrodes outlined in250.52 (A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building and does not split them into any type or one being part or not part of the building.
A metal well casing is not inside the building but if properly bonded is to be used as an electrode.

Another way of looking at this would be, is it required to land the grounding electrode conductor on the interior of a building or could the grounding electrode land underground outside of the building when a metal water pipe is being used. I have installed the grounding electrode outside a building that had metal water pipes where the plumbing code allowed the main shutoff valve to be installed in a box outside and from that point to the driven rod. From the shutoff valve entering the building would be nonmetallic pipes.

 

[ptonsparky]

I guess if you want to dig up around the house to see if a water line, metal pipe or plate electrode just happens to be buried out there, have at it. I will bond to those that I see are available. I do not know of one of my most difficult inspectors that will make me look for a GE I cannot see or do not know is there. I do bond to any metallic pipe that comes in underground with the thought that it does extend for at least 10'. On an old farm home I could have a couple hundred feet of it out there. Maybe 6".

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Your statement contradicts itself. 250.50 explains it.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

It describes all the electrodes outlined in250.52 (A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building and does not split them into any type or one being part or not part of the building.
A metal well casing is not inside the building but if properly bonded is to be used as an electrode.

Another way of looking at this would be, is it required to land the grounding electrode conductor on the interior of a building or could the grounding electrode land underground outside of the building when a metal water pipe is being used. I have installed the grounding electrode outside a building that had metal water pipes where the plumbing code allowed the main shutoff valve to be installed in a box outside and from that point to the driven rod. From the shutoff valve entering the building would be nonmetallic pipes.

Mike,
Once again we will not agree on what a code section means. A metal water pipe that stops short of the building is not AT the building and is not required to be used as a grounding electrode by the wording of 250.50.

The point of connection of the grounding electrode conductor to the grounding electrode does not enter into this. Sure you are permitted to make that connection exterior to the building. Sure you can use the pipe that stops short of the building as a grounding electrode, but it remains my opinion that the use of a water pipe that stops short of the building is not required by the NEC.

Where would you draw the line? One foot, 5 feet, 100 feet????

Also there are water utilities that install an isolating fitting on the water pipe outside of the building to protect their workers from the danger that is created when we use their water pipes as a grounding electrode. If this fitting is less than 10' from the building, are you saying we have to bond around it?

 

[George Stolz]

I agree with Don. "At" the building means in contact with the building.

A metal well casing is not inside the building but if properly bonded is to be used as an electrode.

No, it is not. It is an optional 250.52(A)(8) electrode, and it is not at the building - two reasons you don't have to use a metal well casing as an electrode.

 

[jwelectric]

In 250.52(A)(1) the requirement for a metal water pipe to be a grounding electrode is clear in the 2011 code cycle

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

In 250.68(C) makes it clear that the part of the metal water pipe that enters the building is NOT the electrode but is the conductor that is used to get to the underground part.

(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

1. Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

250.50 requires that where any of the electrodes outlined in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) are present they MUST be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.

Again the metal water pipe does not have to enter the building to be used. If it is 10 feet or more in contact with earth it is to be used no matter if it eneters the building or not. The code has made it clear that that part of the metal water pipe that does enter the building is NOT part of the electrode and is nothing more than the conductor that reaches the electrode that is in contact with earth.

 

[iwire]

Again the metal water pipe does not have to enter the building to be used. If it is 10 feet or more in contact with earth it is to be used no matter if it eneters the building or not.

Mike, this ranks as one of the most ridiculous positions you have taken.

Enjoy your fun with words, luckily most inspectors are better than that.

By your interpretation I have to connect to every metal water pipe in the world.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, this ranks as one of the most ridiculous positions you have taken.

Enjoy your fun with words, luckily most inspectors are better than that.

By your interpretation I have to connect to every metal water pipe in the world.

No Bob just the ones that are present at the building that have 10 or more feet in contact with earth. It does not say metal water pipes that enter the building but it does say those that are present at the building.

You can say that it is ridiculous all your heart desires but it says what it says.

One more thing to keep in mind is, just because an inspector passes something in no way means that it is code compliant.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

No Bob just the ones that are present at the building that have 10 or more feet in contact with earth. It does not say metal water pipes that enter the building but it does say those that are present at the building. ...

Mike,
The issue is what is the definition of "present at the building or structure". My definition is that it has to be a part of the structure, as in the concrete encased electrode, or enter the building in the case of the metal underground water pipe. Your difinition is different, so my question is, what is your defintion?