Clamp Accessibility Question

infinity · Mar 30, 2012

hurk27 said:
I have never been required to have a bond accessible for a hydro massage tub, or any EPG type bond?

What kind of bond are you referring to for the hydromassage tub?

hurk27 · Mar 31, 2012

infinity said:
What kind of bond are you referring to for the hydromassage tub?

equipotential as that is what is required in 680.74 as from the OP

kwired · Mar 31, 2012

George Stolz said:
Is that actually enforced that way in your area?

So, moving on to the CSST, I do not see a code requirement for a clamp bonding CSST to be accessible. Am I missing it?

It has been said that the CSST fittings are required to be accessible - in the apartment I am in, they are about to conceal a ton of them. Can you cite that reference?

I am not an expert on gas codes, but that is what I have observed as being the general rule with black pipe lines - I would assume the transition from black pipe to CSST would be the same since it is a threaded fitting. Fittings are where leaks happen they don't want them permanently enclosed - not even a coupling.

I myself would rather have a concealed black pipe fitting than to have even one inch of CSST in my house - but that is just my dislike of the CSST speaking here.

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

Hurk is correct to say accessibility is not required!!! I say lets look at 250.68 (A) Ex2 >>>Which proves me wrong. I also can recall installing a #8 cu jumper from a pump motor to a cold water pipe (used it to interconnect with other grounding electrodes).

Your thoughts?

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

My last to say Hurk is correct is on the subject of the Hydro Tub. Not The CSST. As I believe we covered this above.

infinity · Mar 31, 2012

infinity said:
What kind of bond are you referring to for the hydromassage tub?

hurk27 said:
equipotential as that is what is required in 680.74 as from the OP

Are you referring to equipotential bonding like in a pool? Not to beat this subject to death but what in 680.74 says anything about equipotential bonding?

wirebender · Mar 31, 2012

infinity said:
Are you referring to equipotential bonding like in a pool? Not to beat this subject to death but what in 680.74 says anything about equipotential bonding?

Handbook commentary.

I know, not code.

kwired · Mar 31, 2012

resistance said:
Hurk is correct to say accessibility is not required!!! I say lets look at 250.68 (A) Ex2 >>>Which proves me wrong. I also can recall installing a #8 cu jumper from a pump motor to a cold water pipe (used it to interconnect with other grounding electrodes).

Your thoughts?

250.68 is in the grounding electrode / grounding electrode conductor section.

Unless you were referred to comply with this section by another it does not apply.

The best thing I have found is 250.104 (B). Other metal piping.
But I don't necessarily think that bonding a pool pump (or hydromassage) to surrounding metal objects is necessarily intended to be covered by this section.

kwired · Mar 31, 2012

wirebender said:
Handbook commentary.
I know, not code.

Handbook commentary is not code but is good info for consideration - just like anything you read on this forum.

infinity · Mar 31, 2012

wirebender said:
Handbook commentary.
I know, not code.

I had to take a look for myself.

I'm still not seeing anything in 680.74 that mentions equipotential bonding. From the 2011 NECH:

680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in
contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together
using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be
connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that
is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not
be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating
pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding
jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the
area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required
to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service
equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper
bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a
replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall be
terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the
branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated circulating
pump motor is used.

Commentary:

The bonding requirement for hydromassage bathtubs requires
interconnection between metal piping systems and
metal parts associated with the water recirculation system
only at the hydromassage bathtub location. As is the case
with swimming pool bonding, this section does not require
the installation of a bonding conductor from the hydromassage
bathtub pump motor to the service equipment or panelboard
from which the hydromassage bathtub branch circuit
originates even if there is no metal piping or metal parts in
the vicinity of the hydromassage bathtub.
The requirements of 680.74 provide equipotential bonding
in the immediate vicinity of the hydromassage unit, and
the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit
supplying the hydromassage tub provides the path for
ground-fault current. As is the case with other bonding requirements
in Article 680, the 8 AWG copper bonding conductor
is required to be a solid conductor. Solid conductors
are required for Article 680 equipotential bonding applications
in order to provide an added level of resistance to physical
damage.
Double-insulated circulating pump motors are not permitted
to be bonded. However, as is the case in 680.26(B)(6)
(a) for swimming pools, where a double-insulated water circulating
pump motor is used and there are other metal objects
associated with the water circulating system that are
required to be bonded, a solid, 8 AWG or larger copper
bonding conductor is to be run to the pump location with
suitable length to connect it to a replacement pump that is
not double insulated. In addition, during the period of time
that the double-insulated pump is in service, the bonding
conductor is required to be connected to the equipment
grounding conductor of the branch circuit supplying the hydromassage
bathtub pump motor.

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

I believe the true answer is (Referring to the grounding clamp): It?s not required. Per NEC 680.70?which states: Hydro?s are to comply with Part V11 of the article 680 only, proves the grounding clamp is not required to be accessible. As there is nothing in that section that says it does.

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

Goodness, i need to improve on how to explain things!!! :ashamed:

Rewritten for more clarification:
I believe the true answer is (I?m referring to the grounding clamp question), the clamp does not have to be accessible. NEC 680.70 states (In brief): Hydro Tubs shall comply with Part VII of the article 680 only. This proves the grounding clamp is not required to be accessible, because that specific section does not mention otherwise.

hurk27 · Mar 31, 2012

infinity said:
I had to take a look for myself.

I'm still not seeing anything in 680.74 that mentions equipotential bonding. From the 2011 NECH:Commentary:

680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in
contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together
using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be
connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that
is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not
be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating
pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding
jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the
area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required
to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service
equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper
bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a
replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall be
terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the
branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated circulating
pump motor is used.

:? you cant see the above in red?

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

@ infinity, it seems to say something about equipotential bonding in 680.74. See the same section you posted below:

680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in
contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together
using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be
connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that
is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not
be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating
pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding
jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the
area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required
to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service
equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper
bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a
replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall be
terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the
branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated circulating
pump motor is used.

resistance · Mar 31, 2012

Hurk beat me to it

infinity · Mar 31, 2012

resistance said:
@ infinity, it seems to say something about equipotential bonding in 680.74. See the same section you posted below:

680.74 Bonding
All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in
contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together
using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or
bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be
connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that
is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not
be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating
pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding
jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the
area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required
to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service
equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper
bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a
replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall be
terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the
branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated circulating
pump motor is used.

Yup, I read it but equipotential bonding of what is the question. The only requirment written in that section is that the metal parts and any metal piping that is in contact with the circulating water be bonded together. 680.74 requires no other equipotential bonding the way that it's written.

George Stolz · Mar 31, 2012

Rob,

[All metal piping systems] and [all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water] shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

The IAEI has stated that this is the appropriate interpretation of this sentence - the metal plumbing supplying the tub (not recirculating the water, but actually filling the tub) needs to be bonded to the pump motor. Source.

This article actually prompted my question - I saw the tub in the picture and figured that the access door was going to be installed on the left side, leaving that clamp on the right inaccessible.

That got me looking at this whole issue in a new light, realizing that this whole time I had assumed that all grounding clamps had to be accessible unless they complied with the exceptions of 250.68(A) - until I looked at this article, I hadn't realized that I was erroneously assuming all grounding clamps fell under 250.68(A), but only clamps connecting the service to grounding electrodes do. That leaves a whole lot out, including 680.74 and CSST (which is not required under 250.104, despite repeated attempts to add CSST as an object requiring bonding by the NEC).

infinity · Apr 1, 2012

George Stolz said:
Rob,

The IAEI has stated that this is the appropriate interpretation of this sentence - the metal plumbing supplying the tub (not recirculating the water, but actually filling the tub) needs to be bonded to the pump motor. Source.

This article actually prompted my question - I saw the tub in the picture and figured that the access door was going to be installed on the left side, leaving that clamp on the right inaccessible.

IMO 680.74 is one of the most misunderstood and misapplied code articles. The proof is in the fact that even an article in the IAEI Magazine is incorrect (also read the comment on the bottom of the article). Hopefully this will be cleared up in the 2014 NEC if this proposal makes it to final acceptance.

17-148 Log #2736 NEC-P17 Final Action: ACCEPT
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Submitter:Robert Meier, Norwood, NJ
Recommendations:Revise text to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding
Both metal piping system and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together
using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not small than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be
connected tot eh terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not
be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding
jumper shall be required for equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bathtub and shall not be required to
be extended or attached to the remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode. The 8 AWG or larger solid
copper bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall
be terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated
circulating pump motor is used.
Substantiation:There seems to be much confusion with the present wording of this requirement. Inspectors and
installers seem to believe that the two parts of the first sentence, All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water are two separate requirements. Because of this they take the first part
out of context and require the pump to be bonded to the hot and cold metallic water piping that feeds the
hydromassage tub faucet. If the intention of this section were to take the first two parts of the sentence as two separate
requirements then there would need to be some additional wording that would say exactly where the All metal piping systems
that are required to be bonded are located within the structure. When taken as two separate parts, it would
mean that every metal piping system within the structure would be required to be bonded to the pump motor. This would
include the hot and cold metallic water lines, metallic gas piping systems and any other metallic piping system within
the structure. changing the first sentence will clarify that the requirement is solely for metal piping systems and grounded
metal parts that contact the circulating water and not the piping used to fill the tub or any other metallic piping systems
that may or may not be in the vicinity of the hydromassage tub.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Panel Statement: The panel clarifies that the word "Both" replaces the existing word "all" at the beginning of the first
sentence. Otherwise, only the changes shown in legislative text are intended.

Dennis Alwon · Apr 1, 2012

If we are talking Csst then IMO, it will be accessible simply because it must be bonded at the point of entry.

NFPA 54: Section 7.13.2
The 2009 edition of NFPA 54 was approved by ANSI on September 5, 2008. The 2009 editions of the ICC International Fuel Gas Code and the IAPMO Uniform Plumbing Code also have exactly the same language and requirements. The latest editions of these codes require the
following:
7.13.1 Pipe and Tubing Other Than CSST. Each aboveground portion of a gas piping system other than CSST that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping other than CSST shall be considered to be bonded when it is connected to appliances that are connected to the appliance grounding conductor of the circuit supplying that appliance.
7.13.2 CSST. CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent.This requirement should be enforced on all CSST brands and installations regardless of the fuel gas code in effect within the state, or the particular edition of the state code, and in addition to other gas piping requirements that are stipulated within the state fuel gas code. This is a selfimposed requirement stated through the CSA standard and listing, and the installation instructions of each manufacturer. In other words, compliance with the 2009 NFPA 54 should be in effect for all CSST brands for all installations in all states starting September 5, 2008.
There were no exemptions included or implied by these bonding requirements.

resistance · Apr 1, 2012

Dennis Alwon said:
If we are talking Csst then IMO, it will be accessible simply because it must be bonded at the point of entry.

I seem to agree a few post back.

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