Bonding CSST gas lines

[goldstar]

Just passing along an interesting You-Tube video I received from a colleague. We've had numerous discussions at our contractors meetings regarding this. What still remains up in the air is 1) who is responsible for bonding the gas line (plumber or electrician) and 2) What is the proper method of bonding. If anyone has more information please let us all know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIQAHnnzDmM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Our State Electrical Inspector says the person installing the CSST is responsible for the bonding. That said, the HVAC guys don't give a hoot about it usually so we end up doing it. I normally run a #6CU from the Intersystem Bonding Terminal to the CSST connection at the gas meter.

 

[goldstar]

Our State Electrical Inspector says the person installing the CSST is responsible for the bonding. That said, the HVAC guys don't give a hoot about it usually so we end up doing it. I normally run a #6CU from the Intersystem Bonding Terminal to the CSST connection at the gas meter.

Is that acceptable by the plumbing or electrical inspector and if so, what type of grounding mechanism are you using ? Also, is it acceptable by the gas company ?

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Is that acceptable by the plumbing or electrical inspector and if so, what type of grounding mechanism are you using ? Also, is it acceptable by the gas company ?

As long as it gets done, everyone is happy. I use a water pipe clamp and attach it to the CSST connector or the steel nipple that the connector screws into. My AHJ likes the connection to be outside but legally you can bond the CSST anywhere it is accesible like at the manifold in the utility room.

 

[goldstar]

As long as it gets done, everyone is happy. I use a water pipe clamp and attach it to the CSST connector or the steel nipple that the connector screws into. My AHJ likes the connection to be outside but legally you can bond the CSST anywhere it is accesible like at the manifold in the utility room.

OK. Good to know. I'll ask some of our local inspectors what they're seeing and accepting and I'll post it here. Thanks.

 

[stickboy1375]

As long as it gets done, everyone is happy. I use a water pipe clamp and attach it to the CSST connector or the steel nipple that the connector screws into. My AHJ likes the connection to be outside but legally you can bond the CSST anywhere it is accesible like at the manifold in the utility room.

Is a water pipe clamp listed for use on a gas pipe? In other words, is this an approved method of installation? I do the same by the way... I just find it funny that an inspector would complain about two wires in a connector, but not even think think twice about a water pipe clamp on a gas pipe?

 

[rcarroll]

From the fuel gas code (IFGC), CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than #6 copper or equivalent.
Same verbage in the IRC.

That said, the connection needs to be outside at the service. Nothing said of type of clamp.

Since it's not in the NEC, the responsibility is not on the EC.
However, if the EC wishes to make money on it, do it!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

From the fuel gas code (IFGC), CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building. The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than #6 copper or equivalent.
Same verbage in the IRC.

There were proposals to include this rule in the NEC, but CMP5 could not find any technical substantiation that the bonding would solve the problem so they rejected the proposals. Of couse, if the other codes that require this bonding have been adopted, the CSST has to be bonded.

That said, the connection needs to be outside at the service. Nothing said of type of clamp.

Do the codes you cited require the bonding connection to be outside? I have not read that anywhere.

Since it's not in the NEC, the responsibility is not on the EC.
However, if the EC wishes to make money on it, do it!

I agree.

 

[goldstar]

That said, the connection needs to be outside at the service. Nothing said of type of clamp.

This is the part I'm having trouble with. In my area if the exterior gas piping is galvanized pipe it doesn't have to be painted. I can see where a water pipe clamp could be used and acceptable in this case. Of course we still have the issue with dissimilar metals. However, if the piping is black iron it is supposed to be painted. Most of the installations I come across are just that and are painted gray. Now you have to scrape away the paint in order for the clamp to be properly bonded to the pipe. Then we have the rust issue and the issue of having the gas piping becomming part of the grounding electrode system.

I remember going through this about 10 years ago where we would bond between the cold and hot water copper lines of the water heater and then extending the bond wire to the gas pipe using the same type pipe clamp. Electrical inspector would approve it but when the gas company came in they would remove the bonding wire. I also recall a newsletter that Mike Holt had published where a city (I believe it was Austin, TX) had gas lines that were corroding in the streets and it was determined that it was caused by the bonding of gas piping to the electrical system. I thought I saved a copy of that but I can't seem to find it. If anyone has a copy of that or a link would you please post it ?

 

[stickboy1375]

we have the rust issue and the issue of having the gas piping becomming part of the grounding electrode system.

I remember going through this about 10 years ago where we would bond between the cold and hot water copper lines of the water heater and then extending the bond wire to the gas pipe using the same type pipe clamp. Electrical inspector would approve it but when the gas company came in they would remove the bonding wire. I also recall a newsletter that Mike Holt had published where a city (I believe it was Austin, TX) had gas lines that were corroding in the streets and it was determined that it was caused by the bonding of gas piping to the electrical system. I thought I saved a copy of that but I can't seem to find it. If anyone has a copy of that or a link would you please post it ?

Nothing wrong with bonding the gas pipe, you just cant use it as the GES, it gets bonded by any electrical appliance connected to the gas system anyway...

 

[goldstar]

Nothing wrong with bonding the gas pipe, you just cant use it as the GES, it gets bonded by any electrical appliance connected to the gas system anyway...

All the more reason why re-bonding doesn't seem logical in many cases. Gas ranges and clothes dryers are plugged in on a semi-permanent basis. Why re-bond ?

 

[stickboy1375]

All the more reason why re-bonding doesn't seem logical in many cases. Gas ranges and clothes dryers are plugged in on a semi-permanent basis. Why re-bond ?

The same can be said with the water system... CSST just needs to be outlawed, plain and simple...

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

CSST just needs to be outlawed, plain and simple...

I agree.....but they are all using it around here. I just built a new house and had the HVAC guy use the black jacketed CSST. It is supposed to be better quality than the yellow junk.

 

[infinity]

The New Jersey DCA has issued some guidelines on CSST bonding. Scroll down to pages 10-11:

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/publications/pdf_ccc/ccc_2011_spring.pdf

 

[kwired]

Having a bond wire to the gas piping is not the real issue, the appliance likely to energize the gas piping likely already performs the bonding to gas piping via the equipment grounding conductor for that appliance. The problem is CSST not being able to handle transient currents without possibility of weakening the tubing possibly causing pin holes. They don't want the tubing to carry this current, so they want to put a bonding jumper around it. Problem is they can ask us to put a #6 bonding jumper around it in hopes the tubing will not carry much current, but it is in parallel with the tubing, parallel paths will both carry equal current if equal resistance. Tubing and a #6 are probably not equal resistance but probably are not so much different that amount of current flowing in the tubing will be significantly less than what flows through the bonding jumper. IMO there is still risk of current damaging the tubing, which is what they are trying to avoid.

Water pipe clamps? - We call them water pipe clamps - in general they are for any metallic tubing or rod. If bronze with bronze or stainless bolts they often even are rated for direct burial.

Galvanized piping can not be used with natural gas, not certain about LP, but have never seen it with galvanized. Something in the gas reacts with the galvanizing. Same for copper with natural gas, LP however can be used with copper piping.

 

[rcarroll]

Do the codes you cited require the bonding connection to be outside? I have not read that anywhere.

.....bonded at the point where the gas service ENTERS the building. I take that to mean the bond has to be outside.

 

[John120/240]

.....bonded at the point where the gas service ENTERS the building. I take that to mean the bond has to be outside.

When we bond the water service it is always on the inside of the structure. Why would the gas

service be any different ??

 

[rcarroll]

When we bond the water service it is always on the inside of the structure. Why would the gas

service be any different ??

I don't know. :happysad: It's what the code says. I don't think gas piping can be installed under a building like water pipe can without a lot of extra steps. I'd have to look it up.

 

[packersparky]

.....bonded at the point where the gas service ENTERS the building. I take that to mean the bond has to be outside.[/QUOTE]


I take that to mean it has to be inside. If the word "enters" was replaced with "exits", IMO that would mean the bond has to be outside. "Enters" means in, "Exits" means out IMO.

 

[kwired]

I don't know. :happysad: It's what the code says. I don't think gas piping can be installed under a building like water pipe can without a lot of extra steps. I'd have to look it up.

Generally not allowed under a building but can enter below grade through a side wall.