Finding earth ground impedence (ohms) at a residential electrical service panel???

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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I would say that the AVO book I linked to has everything to do with the OP's question and slapping in ground spike #2 is just a way to satisfy the NEC without knowing the least bit about the actual values.

Is it just for curiosity them? So you find out, what then? Is it required that you find out? Who pays for your time and material to research to find out?
I'm just intrigued at the practicality of this discussion. If it was important either the NEC would have addressed this issue or if the design engineer that was responsible for the system design was to have determined that it was imperative that the ground be within a given resistance it would have been a part of the specs.
Remember that a line toearth ground fault will most likely never trip a TM breaker.
Humor me a bit as to what the importance of end result if this discussion may determine.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Is it just for curiosity them? So you find out, what then? Is it required that you find out? Who pays for your time and material to research to find out?
I'm just intrigued at the practicality of this discussion. If it was important either the NEC would have addressed this issue or if the design engineer that was responsible for the system design was to have determined that it was imperative that the ground be within a given resistance it would have been a part of the specs.
Remember that a line toearth ground fault will most likely never trip a TM breaker.
Humor me a bit as to what the importance of end result if this discussion may determine.

Other than the liberal requirement imposed on us by the NEC, ground resistance may be part of a design spec.

Telcos, for instance, require values as low as 1 or 0.5 ohms. The typical telco site has a ufer ground, a ground ring and many oversized rods and use exothermic welding for connecting #2 SBTC to the rods and the other electrodes. If that set up won't get a low enough value, then another approach, usually a chem ground is used.

There are more reasons for a good ground system besides tripping a breaker should a fault to earth occur. In the telco's case, it's for lightning and surge protection. Another reason is the establishment of an equipotential plane. Sensitive laboratories will often require such a plane as minute differences in voltages can affect their instruments. Some radio stations are engineered with very low ground resistance specs as are cell towers.

FWIW, one of my inspector friends tested a single ground rod here in Muskegon using the fall of potential method. In our sandy soil, a single ground rod presents 1300 ohms of resistance. In other words, a single rod is useless. Two rods are not much better, BUT the thousands of rods that comprise the entire grounding system of the utility does a decent job of voltage stabilization.

BONDING, not grounding is the safety means to open a breaker when a fault occurs and will function with or without any connection at all to the earth.

Grounding does provide some safety, but that is not the primary function of a low resistance connection to the earth, and the examples I have given above should clarify that.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Other than the liberal requirement imposed on us by the NEC, ground resistance may be part of a design spec.

Telcos, for instance, require values as low as 1 or 0.5 ohms. The typical telco site has a ufer ground, a ground ring and many oversized rods and use exothermic welding for connecting #2 SBTC to the rods and the other electrodes. If that set up won't get a low enough value, then another approach, usually a chem ground is used.

There are more reasons for a good ground system besides tripping a breaker should a fault to earth occur. In the telco's case, it's for lightning and surge protection. Another reason is the establishment of an equipotential plane. Sensitive laboratories will often require such a plane as minute differences in voltages can affect their instruments. Some radio stations are engineered with very low ground resistance specs as are cell towers.

FWIW, one of my inspector friends tested a single ground rod here in Muskegon using the fall of potential method. In our sandy soil, a single ground rod presents 1300 ohms of resistance. In other words, a single rod is useless. Two rods are not much better, BUT the thousands of rods that comprise the entire grounding system of the utility does a decent job of voltage stabilization.

BONDING, not grounding is the safety means to open a breaker when a fault occurs and will function with or without any connection at all to the earth.

Grounding does provide some safety, but that is not the primary function of a low resistance connection to the earth, and the examples I have given above should clarify that.
I revert back to the OP and answering that without muddying up the waters and making a simple answer complicated.
as I refered to in my previous post unless there is a spec that must be complied with how much messing around does one have to go through in order to meet some unknown requirement?
I am in total agreement with you regarding actual bonding and tripping breakers. I wanted to make a point that if grounding resistance is thought to be important because of being able to trip a breaker should there be a L-G fault that those who believed that would be way off target. The NEC has come a very long ways in the past 30 years and I would like to think that if the NEC requirements for grounding were not sufficient enough that it would have been addressed by now in the code reviews by addressing something more that (2) ground rods.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I revert back to the OP and answering that without muddying up the waters and making a simple answer complicated.
as I refered to in my previous post unless there is a spec that must be complied with how much messing around does one have to go through in order to meet some unknown requirement?
I am in total agreement with you regarding actual bonding and tripping breakers. I wanted to make a point that if grounding resistance is thought to be important because of being able to trip a breaker should there be a L-G fault that those who believed that would be way off target. The NEC has come a very long ways in the past 30 years and I would like to think that if the NEC requirements for grounding were not sufficient enough that it would have been addressed by now in the code reviews by addressing something more that (2) ground rods.

Look at how many times Article 250 was totally re-written. The subject of grounding almost always results in some sort of disagreement. It's like that in radio, too. Worse, actually.

The first code books actually forbid grounding a current carrying conductor. Then, around the turn of the 20th century, it required a current carrying conductor to be grounded. Just since I have been in the trade we have went from one rod to two rods to connecting to re-bar as a requirement for new installations.

Remember, the purpose of the NEC is not to aid in design. It is a bare minimum set of standards resulting from compromises.

If you want a better connection to the earth, by all means go for it. The NEC does not forbid that. If you want to see what an effective grounding system consists of, check out what they are doing at cell sites. They can operate flawlessly whilst taking direct lightning hits. The lightning protection system on a cell tower costs almost as much as the tower.

As an extra class amateur radio operator that teaches classes, the subject of grounding for protection often comes up. Some feel that there is no way to design a system that will take direct hits without damage, as lightning is mother nature and does what she wants. The fact is that a system can be made, but will be prohibitively expensive.

So, where should we put the requirement? Should we require every home owner to have a lightning proof system? (Which would cost more than their house).

Or do we just drop the grounding requirement?

As I mentioned before, the NEC is a compromise and the result will fall somewhere between perfect and useless, and since the NEC is a bare minimum standard, it will be skewed way toward the useless side. IMHO.

Testing for ground resistance and knowing how to do it properly is just one skill. That skill may never be needed. Knowing how to use a Hi-Pot correctly and properly graph the results is another skill that most of us will never use. Heck, most of the guys I see post on this forum use a 'Megger' like a DVOM and probably have never done charted readings, or know what the readings are telling us. That's fine. Someday they may need to do charted insulation testing and at least will know how to operate the 'Megger'.

It is far better NOT to rely on the NEC for instruction and, instead, learn about any subject covered by the NEC from a source meant to educate, not regulate.

So far, Mike Holt's forum has been running neck and neck with my books for the acquisition of electrical knowledge. I have all of them from my apprenticeship plus shelves full from automotive, marine and heavy equipment electrical systems books. And theory and physics. But this forum has something the books don't. That is the ability to communicate with people in our trade that we would NEVER be able to do otherwise.

Using the NEC to try to understand our trade is like using CFR 47 Part 97 to try to understand amateur radio.
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
If someone is willing to pay for it and it is not unsafe, I would just tell him how much it will cost and let the customer decide if he really wants it.

Also, if you understand the subject well, you may be able to give your customer some alternative choices. But, usually, if anything other than code minimum is required, that decision would be made by an engineer hired by the customer. The customer probably doesn't even know why the system is needed.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
the NEC is a compromise and the result will fall somewhere between perfect and useless, and since the NEC is a bare minimum standard, it will be skewed way toward the useless side
Classic, I may quote this in the future. :thumbsup:
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Classic, I may quote this in the future. :thumbsup:

Thanks. Every now and then I come up with a good one!

My friend the inspector that did the rod testing is also an extra class ham. We have been friends for 20 years. One of his sayings is, 'If you follow the NEC to the letter, you are the worst electrician allowed by law.'

He teaches code upgrades and likes to say that to his students.

:lol:
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
If a ground rod is driven elsewhere on the premisses (not as part of the required ground rods) for a Ham radio and the rod is NOT connected to the electrical system. Is it a violation to connect the radio to it?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
If a ground rod is driven elsewhere on the premisses (not as part of the required ground rods) for a Ham radio and the rod is NOT connected to the electrical system. Is it a violation to connect the radio to it?

The violation would be not bonding the two systems together, radio or not. That is a point of difference among some hams. Some think (in error) that it's better not to effectively bond as required and they will be safer and get better performance if they don't. Part III of Article 810 is specific to ham radio (most hams don't even know it exists) but refers you all over creation from one part of the NEC to the other. If you jump around long enough, you will get to the part of 250 that requires the interconnection of all grounding systems and electrodes on the premises.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Oh, FWIW, I get to teach a grounding class for our area hams as part of our continuing education process. This thread has been good exercise. I'll probably be fielding some of the same questions. The test that Strife suggested gets brought up from time to time and takes a bit of effort to de-bunk. A white board really helps. It makes much more sense to people if the 'circuit' is sketched out.

Another myth is the thought (and practice) of disconnecting antenna leads and putting the ends in a glass, inside the house, for lightning protection. Luckily, my description of what would likely happen to the glass if the lead took a hit has pretty much thwarted that practice, at least in this area, anyway.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Oh, and the NESC has it's quirks, too.

Somewhere I have a pic of a new 345kV metal pole base. When I saw it I literally laughed out loud. Imagine a 100 foot tall, 4 foot diameter steel pole bolted to a HUGE concrete base with at least a dozen one inch diameter j-bolts. At the base is one single terminal and in that terminal is one single #6 solid CU wire going to a single 5/8" ground rod. The single rod, as useless as it is, is an NESC requirement.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
The violation would be not bonding the two systems together, radio or not. That is a point of difference among some hams. Some think (in error) that it's better not to effectively bond as required and they will be safer and get better performance if they don't. Part III of Article 810 is specific to ham radio (most hams don't even know it exists) but refers you all over creation from one part of the NEC to the other. If you jump around long enough, you will get to the part of 250 that requires the interconnection of all grounding systems and electrodes on the premises.

What I was wondering is, if the radio is connected by a grounded outlet would that be sufficient to say the is connected to the system. In the same way a gas line needs to be bonded by "the circuit likely to energize it."
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
What I was wondering is, if the radio is connected by a grounded outlet would that be sufficient to say the is connected to the system. In the same way a gas line needs to be bonded by "the circuit likely to energize it."

Well, most ham radios are 13.8 volt DC and need a power supply to operate. The radios themselves are not connected to a grounded outlet. In fact, most can operate off a car battery with little problems. My power supply has the - bonded to the grounding terminal. The power supplies usually are connected to a grounded outlet and that is all that is required by the NEC. If the antennas are outside and come inside, then grounding or surge suppression for the antenna is required.

Are you asking about a particular installation, or just wondering in general?

There is no requirement for a separate grounding system or extra electrodes due to the presence of a radio, be it a receiver or a transmitter. The grounding requirements for antennas and towers are not the same as for just a radio.

None of my antennas are grounded and I have talked thousands of miles with them. They are not in violation of any code because they are all inside the house. If I were to move them outside, then the requirements would be much different as you can imagine and as simple logic would dictate.

If you are into radio and want to learn more about grounding and surge suppression I can refer you to some very good sites specific to two way radio installations.

But since that would stray from the OP's question maybe it would be better to PM me. If the OP is interested in our discussion I have no problem with carrying it on here, otherwise, due to the depth and breadth of the tangent we have taken, we may be perceived as hijacking this thread, which I have no intention of doing.
 
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acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Mine was just a "is it required" question. I see guys drive rods for all kinds of things, radio, phone, cable tv, etc. and not connect them to the grounding system. I Just roll my eyes and laugh at the fact they think they are doing good. I know what is required for "inner system bonding" but I wasn't sure about a ham radio and if it is able to run on a battery I would say it isn't required, for that aplication.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
How often is the service entrance at one end of the house there the ground rods are and you install an antenna at the opposite end of the stucture and know that you have to ground it. Simply driving a ground rod there would be much simpler than running a ground wire all the way back to the service entrance and completely ignore or overlook the fact that you would have to bond the rods together anyway.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
How often is the service entrance at one end of the house there the ground rods are and you install an antenna at the opposite end of the stucture and know that you have to ground it. Simply driving a ground rod there would be much simpler than running a ground wire all the way back to the service entrance and completely ignore or overlook the fact that you would have to bond the rods together anyway.

That is where it gets interesting, I see others come in and drive ground rods and not attach them to the grounding system. They are not mine, it is not mine to attach to, aside from saying it's wrong, there is nothing more to do.
 

jumper

Senior Member
That is where it gets interesting, I see others come in and drive ground rods and not attach them to the grounding system. They are not mine, it is not mine to attach to, aside from saying it's wrong, there is nothing more to do.

A supplemental ground rod does not need a direct connection, the EGC connects it.

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