Finding earth ground impedence (ohms) at a residential electrical service panel???

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How do you know it 'works great'?
I just finished bonding some gas pipe due to the presence of CSST supplying gas to a dryer. There was no bond from the well point to the water piping as the pump had not been jumpered, and of course no bond to the metal gas pipe feeding the CSST.

It had been that way for years with no problems. Does that mean it was 'working great' before I bonded everything? I would have to do testing to even notice the difference unless there was a fault, and a rather large one at that.

Just curious, why do you feel the need for a chem ground at your house?

BECAUSE WE HAD IT VERIFIED BY A THIRD PARTY. :lol::lol::lol:
Sorry you had an issue with some CSST, but but that doesn't mean everyone doesn't do their job correctly.

I should add, I don't need one at my house, I said I had installed one. It was on a commercial telco sight and we had no other options. I wouldn't do any more than two rods on a house, or a uffer.
 
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...I have only done one chemical rod and they work great, the older they get the better they work.
How so? As the chemicals in the rod are depleted, they have to be replaced or you end up having just an electrode in the earth, not a chemical rod in the earth.
 
How so? As the chemicals in the rod are depleted, they have to be replaced or you end up having just an electrode in the earth, not a chemical rod in the earth.

This type of chemical rod has an access cap and the chemical that is used is maintained (not my problem if they do or don't maintain it). As the rod gets older the chemical leaches into the soil farther and makes more contact then when new.
 
And right from the beginning they are wrong.

"The simplest and somewhat misleading idea of a good ground for an
electrical system is a section of iron pipe driven into the earth with a wire
conductor connected from the pipe to the electrical circuit (Fig. 1). This
may, or may not, be a suitable low resistance path for electric current to
protect personnel and equipment."

The GEC DOES NOT PROTECT DIRECTLY.
1000A breaker, 277V, 1 OHM resistance for the GEC.
Does the 1000A breaker trip under a fault(BY GEC ALONE).? NO
Are you protected?..... I will leave that answer to you.
We are protected by virtue of OCPD devices, GFI devices, AFCI devices, etc, opening under a certain fault. Heck, a 400A breaker won't open under a 1 ohm fault at 277V. No matter the GEC. If you touch something that has a certain potential different than yours, you WILL BE electrocuted. So if the protection device does not open, NO GROUNDING IN THE WORLD will save you.
The GEC resistance has ALMOST NOTHING TO DO with opening the device under a fault. Good luck building a GEC that will open a 4,000A breaker by itself.


Accept no substitutes.

THIS is THE way to test ground resistance.

http://www.biddlemegger.com/biddle-ug/GettingDownToEarth-MC.pdf
 
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BECAUSE WE HAD IT VERIFIED BY A THIRD PARTY. :lol::lol::lol:
Sorry you had an issue with some CSST, but but that doesn't mean everyone doesn't do their job correctly.

I should add, I don't need one at my house, I said I had installed one. It was on a commercial telco sight and we had no other options. I wouldn't do any more than two rods on a house, or a uffer.

Oh....that does make a difference! I mistakenly thought you put one at your residence. I play with radios a bit and you would not believe what some people do when trying to ground their stations. A home made (usually made incorrectly and not effective for the purpose) chem ground is not out of the realm of possibilities.

I have worked on telco sites and I know how persnickety they are about grounding. Isn't that #2 solid bare tinned copper a ball to work with?
 
Oh, so they are wrong and you are right.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that.

And your argument against what I said is????
They have more money than me, they printed a whole book on it, so THEY MUST BE SMARTER.
RIGHT?
Do you have an argument against the fact that a 1 OHM GEC COULD NOT(AND WILL NOT) OPEN the hazardous conductors on a 400A, 277V fault, BY SAID GEC ALONE?
 
What is the most effective way to measure the ohms or earth ground impedence at a residential electrical service that has a ground rod. I believe the NEC calls for 25 ohms. What's the most effective way to measure this, and what can be done to reduce the ohms/resistence down to perhaps 5 to 10 ohms? Any feedback on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

My questing is what does this have to do with the simple question as was askied in the OP? Drive (2) rods and call it a day?
 
And your argument against what I said is????
They have more money than me, they printed a whole book on it, so THEY MUST BE SMARTER.
RIGHT?

They obviously are smarter, but it's likely that is because of their education, experience and the results of the tests that they have performed and documented.



Do you have an argument against the fact that a 1 OHM GEC COULD NOT(AND WILL NOT) OPEN the hazardous conductors on a 400A, 277V fault, BY SAID GEC ALONE?

Your point?

That 277 amps won't trip a 400 amp breaker?

Wow, what an epiphany!!
 
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My questing is what does this have to do with the simple question as was askied in the OP? Drive (2) rods and call it a day?

What is the most effective way to measure the ohms or earth ground impedence at a residential electrical service that has a ground rod.

I would say that the AVO book I linked to has everything to do with the OP's question and slapping in ground spike #2 is just a way to satisfy the NEC without knowing the least bit about the actual values.
 
Oh, so they are wrong and you are right.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that.

Furthermore this is from a Mike Holt Perspective(yeah it's not about service ground rods, but it's about ground rods, and ground rods are ground rods wether is a service or a light pole)
"Question: Mike I had an engineer tell me that there was a Code change in the 1999 NEC requiring metal poles for parking lot lighting with HID fixtures to be grounded to the earth. He said that a ground rod must be driven at each pole. If this is true I can't find it, please help me out because I have a job to set 17 in the next few days.

Thanks, Dush

Mike Holt’s Comment: The previous question continues to bug me that people insist that a ground rod be driven at metal poles that support lighting fixtures. From the mouth of one of my members "A lot of ‘black magic, shaman dancing, urban legends, wild-eyed guesses, and whatever someone taught you years ago’ are repeated as gospel."

Let me make a few statements to try to clarify this issue:

The National Electrical Code does NOT require a ground rod at metal poles.
A ground rod at a pole will NOT clear a line-to-ground fault for systems that operate at less than 600 volts.
A ground rod at a pole will NOT reduces the touch potential from the metal pole to the earth from a line-to-ground fault.
A ground rod is NOT required at a metal light fixture pole by the Lightning Protection Institute http://www.lightning.org.
A ground rod is NOT required at a metal light fixture pole by the Lightning Protection Standard (NFPA 780) http://www.nfpa.org.
A ground rod at the metal pole does NOT reduce damage to the fixtures, lamps, and the pole wiring, because the lightning traveled through the equipment on the way to the earth.
A ground rod at a metal pole does NOT protect the concrete foundation that supports a metal pole from lightning damage. If there were true, then electric utilities would never use concrete poles to support overhead wiring.
A ground rod at the metal pole does NOT protect the circuit wiring and equipment in the building from lightning damage (open back door). If you want to protect the circuit wiring in the building, then surge protection should be installed on the circuit conductors that go outside to the metal poles.
If driving a ground rod at a metal pole is such a good idea (some people are very passionate about this), then why are there no papers or standards recommending this practice? Don’t you think that if this was such a good ideas that someone would have proposed it and incorporated it into the NEC, IEEE standard, the Lightning Protection Code, or some other recommended practice?

From: Maddox, Robert

I believe that the grounding of lighting poles is a holdover from old Power Company standards. Wood poles were first used to carry power wires & then higher voltage lines. A lightning protection wire was strung along the tops of the poles to protect the power cables below. That practice continues today. At each pole a ground wire was brought down to a ground rod. Over the years lights were added to these poles, typically wooden poles. As electrical street lighting became more common some poles were used only for lighting, but the practice continued. Also the Power Company ran street lights at 240V-LL & 480V-LL with no neutral or ground, thus as metal poles came into vogue the ground rod & wire were used to ground the metal pole in case the lines came into contact with the metal pole. Once the Power Company started, everyone copied the practice, many times without knowing why. It just seemed like a good idea!

Mike’s Comment:

This is exactly what I believe."


Notice the reason ground rods came into play.
Now take the pole and substitute for service and you get:
A ground rod at a service WILL NOT clear a line to ground fault.(TRUE)
A ground rod at a service will NOT reduces the touch potential from the metal service to the earth from a line-to-ground fault.(TRUE)
A ground rod at the service does NOT protect the circuit wiring and equipment in the building from lightning damage (open back door). If you want to protect the circuit wiring in the building, then surge protection should be installed on the circuit conductors that go outside to the service.(TRUE)
Is a light pole any different from a service to the above mentioned statements?
 
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Furthermore this is from a Mike Holt Perspective(yeah it's not about service ground rods, but it's about ground rods, and ground rods are ground rods wether is a service or a light pole)
"Question: Mike I had an engineer tell me that there was a Code change in the 1999 NEC requiring metal poles for parking lot lighting with HID fixtures to be grounded to the earth. He said that a ground rod must be driven at each pole. If this is true I can't find it, please help me out because I have a job to set 17 in the next few days.

Thanks, Dush

Mike Holt’s Comment: The previous question continues to bug me that people insist that a ground rod be driven at metal poles that support lighting fixtures. From the mouth of one of my members "A lot of ‘black magic, shaman dancing, urban legends, wild-eyed guesses, and whatever someone taught you years ago’ are repeated as gospel."

Let me make a few statements to try to clarify this issue:

The National Electrical Code does NOT require a ground rod at metal poles.
A ground rod at a pole will NOT clear a line-to-ground fault for systems that operate at less than 600 volts.
A ground rod at a pole will NOT reduces the touch potential from the metal pole to the earth from a line-to-ground fault.
A ground rod is NOT required at a metal light fixture pole by the Lightning Protection Institute http://www.lightning.org.
A ground rod is NOT required at a metal light fixture pole by the Lightning Protection Standard (NFPA 780) http://www.nfpa.org.
A ground rod at the metal pole does NOT reduce damage to the fixtures, lamps, and the pole wiring, because the lightning traveled through the equipment on the way to the earth.
A ground rod at a metal pole does NOT protect the concrete foundation that supports a metal pole from lightning damage. If there were true, then electric utilities would never use concrete poles to support overhead wiring.
A ground rod at the metal pole does NOT protect the circuit wiring and equipment in the building from lightning damage (open back door). If you want to protect the circuit wiring in the building, then surge protection should be installed on the circuit conductors that go outside to the metal poles.
If driving a ground rod at a metal pole is such a good idea (some people are very passionate about this), then why are there no papers or standards recommending this practice? Don’t you think that if this was such a good ideas that someone would have proposed it and incorporated it into the NEC, IEEE standard, the Lightning Protection Code, or some other recommended practice?

From: Maddox, Robert

I believe that the grounding of lighting poles is a holdover from old Power Company standards. Wood poles were first used to carry power wires & then higher voltage lines. A lightning protection wire was strung along the tops of the poles to protect the power cables below. That practice continues today. At each pole a ground wire was brought down to a ground rod. Over the years lights were added to these poles, typically wooden poles. As electrical street lighting became more common some poles were used only for lighting, but the practice continued. Also the Power Company ran street lights at 240V-LL & 480V-LL with no neutral or ground, thus as metal poles came into vogue the ground rod & wire were used to ground the metal pole in case the lines came into contact with the metal pole. Once the Power Company started, everyone copied the practice, many times without knowing why. It just seemed like a good idea!

Mike’s Comment:

This is exactly what I believe."


Notice the reason ground rods came into play.

Actually, ground rods and the 25 ohm value are hold overs from the telegraph era, long before other premises were electrified. I have been studying grounding for years. That value was essential for the SWER DC system used by wireline telegraphers in the 19th century.

Nonetheless, nothing you have posted is any indication that the methods conventionally used to measure electrode resistance, which are outlined in great detail by AVO, are hogwash. The test you suggested would be accepted by our industry if it were accurate. It is not. Nothing you can say or post will change that.
 
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Oh....that does make a difference! I mistakenly thought you put one at your residence. I play with radios a bit and you would not believe what some people do when trying to ground their stations. A home made (usually made incorrectly and not effective for the purpose) chem ground is not out of the realm of possibilities.

I have worked on telco sites and I know how persnickety they are about grounding. Isn't that #2 solid bare tinned copper a ball to work with?

Agreed, if a home owner wants to pay for it, I'll put in two.

As far as the #2 tinned copper goes, (and don't forget the 5/8" X 10' Rods every ten feet) I can cadweld like a champ. Miles of #2. The worst was a ground ring of 750mcm and 3/4" rods all cadwelded and someone came in that night and cut it out of the ground, that cost a few bucks.
 
Agreed, if a home owner wants to pay for it, I'll put in two.

As far as the #2 tinned copper goes, (and don't forget the 5/8" X 10' Rods every ten feet) I can cadweld like a champ. Miles of #2. The worst was a ground ring of 750mcm and 3/4" rods all cadwelded and someone came in that night and cut it out of the ground, that cost a few bucks.

Oh, what memories!

Pouring down rain, middle of nowhere, wet one-shots and 45 minutes of our outage window left.

I actually liked the work. Each site was a new adventure. The engineer we eventually ended up with was great and very informative. I learned a great deal about grounding from working at those Verizon sites.
 
Actually, ground rods and the 25 ohm value are hold overs from the telegraph era, long before other premises were electrified. I have been studying grounding for years. That value was essential for the SWER DC system used by wireline telegraphers in the 19th century.

Nonetheless, nothing you have posted is any indication that the methods conventionally used to measure electrode resistance, which are outlined in great detail by AVO, are hogwash. The test you suggested would be accepted by our industry if it were accurate. It is not. Nothing you can say or post will change that.

I never said their methods are hogwash. I just said the same result can be accomplished without spending 5000 dollars for a piece of equipment.
And I said their opening paragraph is hogwash. The GEC does not protect anyone (directly). Even if you get 1 ohm resistance to your GEC system, it won't be enough to trip a 400A breaker at 277V. The GEC system is mainly used to stabilize POCO's transformer line and neutral. And to create an equipotential(jury's still out on that, but I'll buy it for now) between the building, water, ungrounded parts, ungrounded conductors, etc.

And why isn't the test I suggested accurate? 120V divided by 10 ohms=12A? Am I wrong somewhere? I would have suggested an inline ammeter, and suggested to allow for resistance of the leads, would that make it more accurate?
 
I never said their methods are hogwash. I just said the same result can be accomplished without spending 5000 dollars for a piece of equipment.
And I said their opening paragraph is hogwash. The GEC does not protect anyone (directly). Even if you get 1 ohm resistance to your GEC system, it won't be enough to trip a 400A breaker at 277V. The GEC system is mainly used to stabilize POCO's transformer line and neutral. And to create an equipotential(jury's still out on that, but I'll buy it for now) between the building, water, ungrounded parts, ungrounded conductors, etc.

And why isn't the test I suggested accurate? 120V divided by 10 ohms=12A? Am I wrong somewhere? I would have suggested an inline ammeter, and suggested to allow for resistance of the leads, would that make it more accurate?


It doesn't take 5 grand worth of stuff to do a fall of potential test. Just a megger, a couple rods and some wire.

Your test is not measuring the connection of the electrode to the earth. It is measuring the connection of the AC system back to its source partially through the earth. The tests in the AVO book, like fall of potential, take the utility out of the picture as it's nothing they are doing we care about when we measure electrode resistance.

Your test depends on the integrity of the connection of the neutral to the earth. If you were to snip the little #6 wire on the pole supporting the tranny feeding the panel you were taking these measurements from, your measured current would drop drastically. Do you not agree? The act of snipping the tranny ground does not change the resistance of the electrodes you are measuring, but it WILL change the current. Thus, you are not testing a connection to the earth, you are testing a connection back to the neutral terminal on the transformer.

Any accurate measurement of electrode resistance has to be done with the utility totally out of the picture. We are not concerned with the amount of current going back to a tranny when we are trying to measure electrode to earth (NOT back to source) resistance.

Done properly, the voltage is supplied by the 'Megger' and the current is measured (like you did, only NOT from the utility) to get the results. You may not be realizing the effect that using the utility's power to do the testing has on the results.
 
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This type of chemical rod has an access cap and the chemical that is used is maintained (not my problem if they do or don't maintain it). As the rod gets older the chemical leaches into the soil farther and makes more contact then when new.
That would assume that the chemical is replaced as required. If not the resistance of the rod does not go down as it ages.
 
Strife,

What part of this is hogwash?

"The simplest and somewhat misleading idea of a good ground for an
electrical system is a section of iron pipe driven into the earth with a wire
conductor connected from the pipe to the electrical circuit (Fig. 1). This
may, or may not, be a suitable low resistance path for electric current to
protect personnel and equipment."
 
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