Electrician vs. Engineer

[hassman459]

Reviews on Electricians job

Reviews on Electricians job

how become an engineer in electrician, means is it called an electrician engineer , while complete and well graduate in any electrician degree.

 

[ritelec]

hassman459..

No offense ,
From what i see of it, an electrical engineer studies the principals of electricity.
An Electrician (electrical contractor) applies the theory into real word and what works, and is approved and acceptable for install.

 

[ritelec]

ha ha ..............the powers that be. ha ha ha........

the peace makers............


boing boing,,,,,ha ha ha ha .......TY

 

[zbang]

From what i see of it, an electrical engineer studies the principals of electricity.
An Electrician (electrical contractor) applies the theory into real word and what works, and is approved and acceptable for install.

I think you're a step off-
the physicist studies the principals of electricity
the electrical engineer (PE, in this context) studies the principals of electricity and applies them to the circumstances of an installation (does the design)
the electrician/EC implements the design of the engineer

There are times when the electrician/EC also fills the role of designer, and thus engineer, by using already-proven designs in an approved way (e.g. using the NEC tables). It's the engineer's job to know when and why to use different design parameters, and their $$$ on the line if they get it wrong.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[ritelec]

I think you're a step off-
the physicist studies the principals of electricity
the electrical engineer (PE, in this context) studies the principals of electricity and applies them to the circumstances of an installation (does the design)
the electrician/EC implements the design of the engineer

There are times when the electrician/EC also fills the role of designer, and thus engineer, by using already-proven designs in an approved way (e.g. using the NEC tables). It's the engineer's job to know when and why to use different design parameters, and their $$$ on the line if they get it wrong.

Your mileage may vary.

your close but .......it's the electricians ars that is on the line.

sorry but true.

Not to take away from engineers......but ......it's The Electrician (hands on guy, paying the liability) and working around "engineered" blue prints that knows the real true story.

Respectfully.
Rich

 

[ritelec]

and thus engineer, by using already-proven designs in an approved way (e.g. using the NEC tables). It's the engineer's job to know when and why to use different design parameters, and their $$$ on the line if they get it wrong.

thats funny, should be true, but funny ..how many bids have gone out to electricians either getting suckered into the bid by the engineers design or have gotten the extra......please.

rich

 

[ritelec]

(e.g. using the NEC tables). .

I'm walking away from this...but did "you" have to pass a test using the NEC and not just the tables.
Did you ever have to make a job work in real time, and use "the tables".

peace and love.
Rich

 

[templdl]

I was a sales and applications engineer for one of the major electrical distribution protection and control manufactures and thought it to be my responsibility to have knowledge of the NEC as well as the safe electrical practices and procedures that electricians and technicians must practice.
In doing so I was able to understand and communicate with my customers. It also allowed me to assure as best that I could that the product that I was providing was supplied to meet the requirements of the installer. My intent was to make the installation as painless as I could by anticipating what may be required and asking questions. Being familiar with the terminology helped immensely when trying to understand the actual requirements. It could be as simple as knowing the pitfalls of not having mechanical lugs that accept a specific wire size, confirming the secondary configuration of a transformer, confirming a top of bottom feed panel.
I was probably the only sales person in my company that made it a point to attend the NEC updates that were available as well as electrical safely seminars.
My goal was to understand what my customer's requirements were so that I could add value to the product that I was providing to them.
Sometimes an electrician may be installing something that he doesn’t do that often which can be a basic as when primary only orwhen primary and secondary protection is required when installing transformers.

Another of the common things that I tried to do was to caution them regarding sizing a pri. OCPD to small on the primary side of the transformer which can lead to nuisance tripping and to consider the availabiliy of the 250% rule that may be a real life saver. Another issue that I've seen come up was when I supplied a 3ph 75kva transforner with a 480v primarywhich has a rating of 90FLA and the elctricial tries to feed to with a 100AT breaker becaus that's the maximum size that he can fit in a panel. He gets backed into a corner because he can neither size the beraker at 125% not can he gain the benifit of the 250% rule. I like to bring this point up so that the installer understands what he may be getting into to stay ahead of the game. Sometimes he gets lucky but if there is a problem he should be away of what the cause if and what his options are. When supplying transformers it is imparative that I discuss where the primary and secondary connections are and how they intend to enter and exit the enclosure.

When I was an aopplications engineer part of my responsibility was to train an suppoer a 15 person customer suppoer center. To impress upon them the importance af understanding how big cables actually were I had a 1' length of every cable size from #14 to 600KCMIL. That 600KCMIL certainly got their attention as it was big and not very flexible. I also had a sample of Hypalon to illustrate that it was different than the normal cable that is used.
There are way too many problems that occur that can ruin a guys day that can cost money to resolve. What I don’t want to see is a problem that occurs that could have been avoided up front with some foresight that I may have been able to help with.

 

[shamsdebout]

I am very late on seeing this thread.

Some good points were mentioned.

I think when an engineer and electrician works together a lot of good can result.

I will say though, Rick put a spin on this thread with a pretty strong post.

I am still learning as I go, I have being helped by more experienced electricans and I have helped experienced electricans. I try to understand why someone wants to vary something. It may take me a longer time than the person who has made the suggestion but I believe we all can learn.

To the original poster, what has being your experiences with electricans who became engineers?

 

[ggunn]

In my company the lines between the job descriptions of the engineers and electricians are blurry and there is a lot of overlap. I have to design for compliance and I rely on our master electrician for consultation on complex code issues. Likewise, I sometimes go to the site and help him pull wire.

 

[kenaslan]

In my company the lines between the job descriptions of the engineers and electricians are blurry and there is a lot of overlap. I have to design for compliance and I rely on our master electrician for consultation on complex code issues. Likewise, I sometimes go to the site and help him pull wire.

Careful, in most states you cannot touch the wire without a JW lice. And if it was a union job, you cannot even have a screwdriver.

And for all you EE out there that think that only an EE can design, Your too full of yourself. Reality check guys. In all the BIG companies, CH2MHILL, Jacobs, Bechtel ect. very few have a PE, and almost none of the designers have a degree. For power study, yes an EE does the work, but for almost everything else, a designer does it. Everything from cable selection and sizing, to cable tray fill and layout. Even most MEP firms only have one or two PE for 12 or more designers. As a designer I did it all. One line, COMCHECK, SSCR, Arc Flash, Panel Sizing......... with the PE looking at my work at the end, stamping it, and sending it out.

To be told that only a PE can understand arc flash, or calcuate short circuit rating is insulting and arrogant on their part.

 

[ggunn]

And for all you EE out there that think that only an EE can design, Your too full of yourself. Reality check guys.

[...]

To be told that only a PE can understand arc flash, or calcuate short circuit rating is insulting and arrogant on their part.

Straw man arguments. No one has said either of those things.

 

[kenaslan]

Straw man arguments. No one has said either of those things.

"When I perform an Arc Flash Study, I use the SKM version of power system modeling and analysis software. You don?t need an engineering degree to use that software to set up the model or to run the analysis.

But you do need one to be able to say,
?I know how to verify that all design inputs have been correctly given to the model, and I have done that verification, and
I know what the analysis results are telling me, and I have reason to be confident that the results are accurate, and
I certify that the Arc Flash Hazard labels that were generated on the basis of the results of this analysis are the correct ones to be applied to their respective panels.?

As said by a PE here on this board. So yes, these things have been said.

 

[shamsdebout]

Careful, in most states you cannot touch the wire without a JW lice. And if it was a union job, you cannot even have a screwdriver.

And for all you EE out there that think that only an EE can design, Your too full of yourself. Reality check guys. In all the BIG companies, CH2MHILL, Jacobs, Bechtel ect. very few have a PE, and almost none of the designers have a degree. For power study, yes an EE does the work, but for almost everything else, a designer does it. Everything from cable selection and sizing, to cable tray fill and layout. Even most MEP firms only have one or two PE for 12 or more designers. As a designer I did it all. One line, COMCHECK, SSCR, Arc Flash, Panel Sizing......... with the PE looking at my work at the end, stamping it, and sending it out.

To be told that only a PE can understand arc flash, or calcuate short circuit rating is insulting and arrogant on their part.

I am pretty sure you did well. You seem to have a rich bank of knowledge and experience. For the most part we are all blessed with the ability to learn. We all had to learn. For the most part we all had some form of formal training at some point.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are snobbish engineers. However, I don't think I have across any snobbing electrical engineers though. Mechanical :happyyes:

 

[kwired]

I am pretty sure you did well. You seem to have a rich bank of knowledge and experience. For the most part we are all blessed with the ability to learn. We all had to learn. For the most part we all had some form of formal training at some point.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are snobbish engineers. However, I don't think I have across any snobbing electrical engineers though. Mechanical :happyyes:

There are snobbish people in any profession, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, just because some of them have a higher level of education than others do doesn't give them a license to treat others like crap. I am not afraid to argue with an EE, or a doctor, or lawyer, or anyone else that thinks they are so much better than anyone else over something I feel I have some knowledge about. If I am wrong about the issue let them educate me, but with reason and logic, not just because they are educated and that is just the way it is.

 

[ggunn]

As said by a PE here on this board. So yes, these things have been said.

That's not what he was saying. Posting again,

"When I perform an Arc Flash Study, I use the SKM version of power system modeling and analysis software. You don?t need an engineering degree to use that software to set up the model or to run the analysis.

But you do need one to be able to say,
?I know how to verify that all design inputs have been correctly given to the model, and I have done that verification, and
I know what the analysis results are telling me, and I have reason to be confident that the results are accurate, and
I certify that the Arc Flash Hazard labels that were generated on the basis of the results of this analysis are the correct ones to be applied to their respective panels.?

You do need an engineering degree (and then some) to stamp a drawing, which testifies to all that and accepts liability. That doesn't mean that without one you are incapable of understanding it.

 

[jumper]

Is there a valid point to this thread, or is it just going to be a lot of silly EE vs EC vs everybody else posts?

There are good and bad people at all levels of this trade and picking on one another solves nothing.

 

[ggunn]

Is there a valid point to this thread, or is it just going to be a lot of silly EE vs EC vs everybody else posts?

There are good and bad people at all levels of this trade and picking on one another solves nothing.

What he said.

 

[ggunn]

There are snobbish people in any profession, like I mentioned earlier in the thread, just because some of them have a higher level of education than others do doesn't give them a license to treat others like crap. I am not afraid to argue with an EE, or a doctor, or lawyer, or anyone else that thinks they are so much better than anyone else over something I feel I have some knowledge about. If I am wrong about the issue let them educate me, but with reason and logic, not just because they are educated and that is just the way it is.

Who are you talking to? I don't think anyone should treat anyone else like crap, whatever they feel their justification is. I also don't think anyone should walk around with a chip on their shoulder looking for excuses to get angry.

 

[kwired]

Who are you talking to? I don't think anyone should treat anyone else like crap, whatever they feel their justification is. I also don't think anyone should walk around with a chip on their shoulder looking for excuses to get angry.

I'm with you on this, unfortunately not all of the world is. Just venting about anyone that has ever had the attitude their #@&% doesn't stink.