Electrician vs. Engineer

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Was brought in on a job today, we were bidding to to the electric on a building (theater) that had an HVAC system that was horribly undersized. Each theater had its own system that simply could not keep up in the heat. Each system was wired 208 3ph?? (odd because the building feeder was 480) Additional systems were being installed to literally double the heating/cooling capacity. (yeah, it was that undersized) The way the building was built, there is an electrical room at the top of the steps on the roof that housed the distribution panels. The transformer that fed this was in the basement was a huge 300kva.

Engineers solution: Add another transformer, and feeder breaker to the main panel in the basement. (the main panel has ample capacity) Get a concrete cutting/drilling company in to make holes as needed for the conduit, build an addition to the building on the roof to put in another distribution panel. Basically double the existing installation.

My solution: Rewire all the HVAC units to 480 (these units were capable of this, not many Ive seen are) , wire all the new units to 480, change the 208 distribution equipment to 480 equipment, and remove the 300kva transformer. No concrete cutting, no new cable pulls, no new transformer and no new distribution panel. The old panel in the roof was big enough to house the 480 equipment with capacity for all the new AC units.

At first the engineer thought I was nuts. Said that THHN in rigid was only good for 225 volts...I asked several times, he was sure it was only good for 225 volts. Also said something to the effect that once cable is installed and used at one voltage, it cannot be used on another. I handed him my extra copy of 2011 and said, show me where it says this. (this was on Friday) Monday rolls around and he wants to do it my way. He re-planned everything over the weekend and work started Wednesday. I left for vacation Tuesday night so im not there to work the job.

So, anyone else ever run across a plan from an engineer that is plain stupid and more expensive that it needs to be?
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Was brought in on a job today, we were bidding to to the electric on a building (theater) that had an HVAC system that was horribly undersized. Each theater had its own system that simply could not keep up in the heat. Each system was wired 208 3ph?? (odd because the building feeder was 480) Additional systems were being installed to literally double the heating/cooling capacity. (yeah, it was that undersized) The way the building was built, there is an electrical room at the top of the steps on the roof that housed the distribution panels. The transformer that fed this was in the basement was a huge 300kva.

Engineers solution: Add another transformer, and feeder breaker to the main panel in the basement. (the main panel has ample capacity) Get a concrete cutting/drilling company in to make holes as needed for the conduit, build an addition to the building on the roof to put in another distribution panel.

My solution: Rewire all the HVAC units to 480 (these units were capable of this, not many Ive seen are) , wire all the new units to 480, change the 208 distribution equipment to 480 equipment, and remove the 300kva transformer. No concrete cutting, no new cable pulls, no new transformer and no new distribution panel. The old panel in the roof was big enough to house the 480 equipment with capacity for all the new AC units.

At first the engineer thought I was nuts. Said that THHN in rigid was only good for 225 volts...I asked several times, he was sure it was only good for 225 volts. Also said something to the effect that once cable is installed and used at one voltage, it cannot be used on another. I handed him my extra copy of 2011 and said, show me where it says this. (this was on Friday) Monday rolls around and he wants to do it my way. He re-planned everything over the weekend and work started Wednesday. I left for vacation Tuesday night so im not there to work the job.

So, anyone else ever run across a plan from an engineer that is plain stupid and more expensive that it needs to be?

Ever run into one that wasn't?:lol:

Most I run into are not too bad, there is usually something that could be done with less expense, but they may have good reasons for doing it the way they specified.

There is one POCO that has engineers that want what I feel are unnecessary things when you want a service on their system. All non residential underground services - need a spare conduit. I have asked why and never get a reason that makes any sense. Anything from if something happens to one of the other raceways and we can't pull new conductor we can use the spare, then I ask what the chance is of something happening to the used raceway and not the spare that is right next to it:slaphead:, or if they ever need to increase service capacity we can pull more through the spare, how do we know how much capacity will be needed when that time comes or if there isn't a lot of excavation done anyway if a major change. You ever try to get 3 - 3 inch raceways into a 400 amp meter socket plus a couple load raceways? It can be a challenge
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
You have a great opportunity here so use it to your advantage.

You have a great opportunity here so use it to your advantage.

I soon learned that the knowledge about "electrical power" was not necessarily something that an electrical engineer is competent in. Just because they have the title of an EE doesn't mean squat. It is not all that uncommon for a person with a mechanical engineering degree to know much more about power distribution.
EE degrees and gone a lot more towards electronics. I don't have a EE degree and I have learned to develop a healthy respect for EEs that a knowledgeable o power distribution and soon pick up on those who aren't. Basically it is our responsibility to know our enemy and befriend them as you may be able to become their brain trust by working with them. Just think what you may benefit by if they are able to design and write specs that may favor you. They may very well have a lot of influence on the buyer's purchasing decision. And besides you may be able to keep the engineer’s ass out of trouble.
Take him to lunch and discuss your ideas as he obviously needs your experience and ideas. But let him be the hero with the customer as if it’s his idea. Your goal should be to become his silent partner because what you are looking for is the contract to do his work. You have no idea of what value you may be to give the EE some insight into the project and he will feel confident that you will complete the project by working with him.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Why fight this just to prove you are right?


Do the job as designed and make money.


By the way, can you give the make and model HVAC units that can be feild modified from 208 to 480?

That is most unusual.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Unless you're being hired to value engineer the job, just do as Bob said. The loser in many of these instances is the guy paying the bill. :roll:
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Sometimes it is not real obvious to the guy in the field why choices are made that seem odd, or unnecessarily expensive.

I do not buy into the idea that wire gives a rat's ass about what voltage it was run at, as long as the insulation is adequate.

Your solution seems workable and cost effective, but sometimes there are things going on in the background that are none of your business that the engineer may not be in a position to talk about with you. That is actually pretty common. Sometimes choices are made by the owner that seem inexplicable to the guys in the field and to the engineer, but that may also be none of your business.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Sometimes it is not real obvious to the guy in the field why choices are made that seem odd, or unnecessarily expensive.

I do not buy into the idea that wire gives a rat's ass about what voltage it was run at, as long as the insulation is adequate.

Your solution seems workable and cost effective, but sometimes there are things going on in the background that are none of your business that the engineer may not be in a position to talk about with you. That is actually pretty common. Sometimes choices are made by the owner that seem inexplicable to the guys in the field and to the engineer, but that may also be none of your business.

Why do so many engineers have the attitude that the reason for a particular design decision is nobody's business but theirs?

If reason is because of a choice by the owner, why is that so confidential in most cases, especially the situation in the OP?

Understanding reasons why we want to do something the way we are doing it certainly helps to resolve questions when they come up. If something seems like it is over specified with a lot of unnessary things and you run into a problem, just knowing the goals of the owner or designer gets you thinking about solutions that will meet those goals.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I could agree with iwire, and I could disagree with him, because every situation is different. If you can give back cost and keep all profit and overhead only what is the payoff? Irritating the Engineer? If you can make more money, and the EE is receptive, or the customer is a regular, there may be political advantage to proposing the changes. Or say you anticipated this on the bid and decided to bid less profit, up front to get the job, it MAY be a risk to take. Each situation is different.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Please, let's not descend into engineer bashing, OK? We engineers are not necessarily knowledgeable about all the practical ins and outs of an electrician's job, especially if we have (as I have) migrated to power engineering from another arena, but we have been schooled on the fundamentals and with a bit of consultation on an issue are (or at least should be) able to come up to speed fairly quickly. I lean very heavily on our master electrician for advice on code issues and other practical matters, and I have actively cultivated a symbiotic relationship with him. It's a two way street; there are occasionally matters that come up where he knows how something should be but doesn't know why, and that's where I can sometimes actually help him.
 
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mivey

Senior Member
Monday rolls around and he wants to do it my way. He re-planned everything over the weekend and work started Wednesday.
Take joy in the fact that you may have helped someone learn something.

So, anyone else ever run across a plan from an engineer that is plain stupid and more expensive that it needs to be?
Yes. I have also run across plans from ECs that are plain stupid and more expensive than they need to be. Everyone can't be expected to know everything. Try to pass along knowledge whenever you can and make life a little bit easier for the next generation and it will add worth to the time you spend here.

A wise engineer will always welcome input from contractors. Sounds like your engineer was wise.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Why do so many engineers have the attitude that the reason for a particular design decision is nobody's business but theirs?

I often wonder the same things about ECs. :D

We all our guilty of thinking our way is the right way when there are often many perfectly acceptable ways of doing things.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Why do so many engineers have the attitude that the reason for a particular design decision is nobody's business but theirs?

If reason is because of a choice by the owner, why is that so confidential in most cases, especially the situation in the OP?

Understanding reasons why we want to do something the way we are doing it certainly helps to resolve questions when they come up. If something seems like it is over specified with a lot of unnessary things and you run into a problem, just knowing the goals of the owner or designer gets you thinking about solutions that will meet those goals.

Most of our projects there is a confidentiality clause written into the contract. It is not up to me to tell our customer that he is wrong about that. That is his choice and not mine or the electrician in the field.

If an issue comes up in the field, it is not up to the electrician to make a decision about it anyway. It needs to go back up the design chain in case there is some non-obvious issue that it brings up.

It is not unusual at all for our customers to make decisions based on things that are outside of our need to know as well. Sometimes it is fairly obvious what they are up to, sometimes I suspect it is just an arbitrary decision. But as long as it is code legal and safe, once someone else has made that decision it is not up to me to change it.

we have a customer that makes us paint their cabinets a specific blue color. It adds about $500 to the cost of each cabinet. it is their choice. I don't try to change their minds about it, although I have pointed it out to them. our cabinet suppliers bring it up on a regular basis. i do not tell them why (although I do know why and it makes sense) beyond the customer wants it that way, because it is none of his business why this customer wants his cabinets painted that color.

we have another customer that makes us use devicenet inside of MCCs. it is a pain in the a$$ and adds a substantial amount of cost to the project. but that is their choice and we just do it because that is what they want.

it is like running a green wire inside a metal raceway. it is an extra cost that really serves no useful purpose but a lot of people want to see it and a lot of electricians run it even if it is not specified.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Please, let's not descend into engineer bashing, OK? We engineers are not necessarily knowledgeable about all the practical ins and outs of an electrician's job, especially if we have (as I have) migrated to power engineering from another arena, but we have been schooled on the fundamentals and with a bit of consultation on an issue are (or at least should be) able to come up to speed fairly quickly. I lean very heavily on our master electrician for advice on code issues and other practical matters, and I have actively cultivated a symbiotic relationship with him. It's a two way street; there are occasionally matters that come up where he knows how something should be but doesn't know why, and that's where I can sometimes actually help him.

I will respect an engineer if he respects me. I will not tolerate those that think they are much better than I am, or seem to display that attitude. Had one on this forum one time pretty much tell me I had no business understanding electrical theory. Maybe he would like to take some of my service calls since I just don't understand things. I get into some pretty nasty places with these calls sometimes.

Just because I don't have a degree doesn't mean I don't know anything at all. I am pretty fair about this and do not limit bashing of educated people to just engineers. Treat me like crap just because you have an education and you are going to get it back. We are all still human and need to be respect each other. I have had some of the highest respect for some individuals that had no more education than a high school diploma.
 
Thinking about the original message and the saying "never attribute to malice what you can attribute to ignorance".. it's possible that the engineer didn't know that the HVAC equipment could be rewired for 480v (whether they should have known is another matter). Add to that no on-site inspection of the equipment for options and you can get some rather fancy setups. I mean, how many times have people griped about hair-brained designs, when if the EE had any field experience, they would have designed it differently?

We see this lack of imagination and investigation all the time.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I will respect an engineer if he respects me. I will not tolerate those that think they are much better than I am, or seem to display that attitude. Had one on this forum one time pretty much tell me I had no business understanding electrical theory. Maybe he would like to take some of my service calls since I just don't understand things. I get into some pretty nasty places with these calls sometimes.

Just because I don't have a degree doesn't mean I don't know anything at all. I am pretty fair about this and do not limit bashing of educated people to just engineers. Treat me like crap just because you have an education and you are going to get it back. We are all still human and need to be respect each other. I have had some of the highest respect for some individuals that had no more education than a high school diploma.
There are A-holes in every walk of life, and often a know-it-all attitude masks deep insecurity and is compensation for feelings of inferiority. Meeting attitude with more attitude rarely accomplishes anything other than creating barriers between people that are often impossible to circumvent, and assuming a relationship will be adversarial because someone in the past was condescending to you is a self-fulfilling prophesy.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Please, let's not descend into engineer bashing, OK? We engineers are not necessarily knowledgeable about all the practical ins and outs of an electrician's job, especially if we have (as I have) migrated to power engineering from another arena, but we have been schooled on the fundamentals and with a bit of consultation on an issue are (or at least should be) able to come up to speed fairly quickly. I lean very heavily on our master electrician for advice on code issues and other practical matters, and I have actively cultivated a symbiotic relationship with him. It's a two way street; there are occasionally matters that come up where he knows how something should be but doesn't know why, and that's where I can sometimes actually help him.

As I pointed out in my previous post #3 which appears to have been avoided.
The last job that I can remember is discussing a transformer with an FAA electrical engineer regarding the application on a dry type pad mount transformer for a runway. He was assigned tis project after the fact and was a little short of understanding the application but had enough practical knowledge to be able to understand after we discussed the installation.
Another was when I argued with an engineer about another airport runway application where he wanted to step-up from 1ph 240v to 600v then back down to 240v at the other end. I insisted that he should consider 120/240v but he begged to differ. I supplied a number of step-up, step-down padmount transformers for airport avionics in the past. I decided that it wasn't worth arguing and built the step down with a 240v 2w secondary as he specified. Shipped the transformer and the contractor installing the asked where the neutral was. They got the privilege of buying another core and coil.
But, never the less you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Oh well.
 

pfalcon

Senior Member
Location
Indiana
... we have a customer that makes us paint their cabinets a specific blue color. It adds about $500 to the cost of each cabinet. it is their choice. I don't try to change their minds about it, although I have pointed it out to them. our cabinet suppliers bring it up on a regular basis. i do not tell them why (although I do know why and it makes sense) beyond the customer wants it that way, because it is none of his business why this customer wants his cabinets painted that color.

Shh. We sent a whole management team to Japan to find out why they do things better at their plants. After 3 weeks by the team and another 10 weeks by a manager (former engineer), they came back and revealed that shops run better if the machines are all uniformly painted. It's a secret. Please quit giving it away. :(

we have another customer that makes us use devicenet inside of MCCs. it is a pain in the a$$ and adds a substantial amount of cost to the project. but that is their choice and we just do it because that is what they want.

:rotflmao: Sorry. Got carried away. I try to go the other way since the tech is simpler. I have >100 ELs at our site with a union contract. I introduce a new tech and I can end up sending all 100+ to class just because they might have to service it one day.

I will respect an engineer if he respects me. ...

So will I. Electricians, managers, and anybody else too. I'm the 1/4 man engineer here. I get all my work plus pick up the slack when someone is overloaded or on vacation or just a vacant seat. So I get to see just about everyone and everything. I've met both the geniuses and eye-rollers in every trade, profession, and staff level here. And I always have to remember that the guy I'm ... helping ... is often very frightened about his job (engineers) or getting disciplined (hourly) for whatever is happening. I've walked into some pretty rough greetings and arm-folded staring contests.

My advice: Even if they don't respect you behave as though you respect them.

Move the non-participants away. Separate the combatants. Sympathize with anyone feeling like a victim. Find the guys who know what's really happening. Build their confidence in you. Get the real story. Fix it. Congratulate and thank everyone. Walk away. Each time you go back to that area it gets easier to walk the steps.
 
Sometimes there are things going on in the background that are none of your business that the engineer may not be in a position to talk about with you. That is actually pretty common. Sometimes choices are made by the owner that seem inexplicable to the guys in the field and to the engineer, but that may also be none of your business.

This may be true. When I see something that doesn't make sense, I ask questions.

--

Hey, I am not here to bash engineers nor do I think that all engineers are idiots. I believe that many have a comfortable way of doing things and do not like to deviate from it. In this case, the customer said to double the HVAC capacity so he literally doubled everything. (This guys primary field of expertise was HVAC, not electrical)

For those who are wondering, I took the engineer aside on Friday, explained everything and gave him my books and plan. I was fine with him taking credit for it. When he presented it to his people and the customer, he said it was primarily my idea. I did not get to work the job (on vacation) but hes going to send more work my way now.

To someone who asked about field rewire-able RTUs, I believe these were McQuay units, not 100% sure though, spent too much time pretending it was 5 o'clock over the past few days. :D
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thinking about the original message and the saying "never attribute to malice what you can attribute to ignorance".. it's possible that the engineer didn't know that the HVAC equipment could be rewired for 480v (whether they should have known is another matter). Add to that no on-site inspection of the equipment for options and you can get some rather fancy setups. I mean, how many times have people griped about hair-brained designs, when if the EE had any field experience, they would have designed it differently?

We see this lack of imagination and investigation all the time.

This guy was told the equipment could run on 480v and then came up with a bunch of BS reasons why he did not want to run them @ 480 volts, like once a conductor is used at one voltage you can not use it at another:slaphead: Guess once you turn the power off you have changed voltage and you better not turn it back on without replacing the conductors.

My advice: Even if they don't respect you behave as though you respect them.

Move the non-participants away. Separate the combatants. Sympathize with anyone feeling like a victim. Find the guys who know what's really happening. Build their confidence in you. Get the real story. Fix it. Congratulate and thank everyone. Walk away. Each time you go back to that area it gets easier to walk the steps.

I will respect them until they become a know it all and present facts and information that I know are not true, and will not listen to reason when I try to point out they are wrong, then they have the "I am greater than you because I went to school and earned a degree" attitude. I am finished reasoning with them when that happens they are nothing more than a jerk. I have run into other professionals that are same, doctors, lawyers, teachers, even ministers.

.. spent too much time pretending it was 5 o'clock over the past few days. :D

It is 5 o'clock somewhere:cool:
 
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