Wiring smokes

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We were told once in the CEU class that because the interconnect wire on the smokes is low voltage,(or no voltage?) that it could be run separately, like if you only had two wire between the smokes and wanted to interconnect them. You think?

And what kind of wire are you going to use for this? I doubt that signal wire would be allowed to be anything but a class 1 signal circuit - which means you are probably using NM cable in most residences. Ever seen single conductor NM cable?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
And what kind of wire are you going to use for this? I doubt that signal wire would be allowed to be anything but a class 1 signal circuit - which means you are probably using NM cable in most residences. Ever seen single conductor NM cable?

You could run a single THHN for this, some smoke alarm instructions cover this.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You could run a single THHN for this, some smoke alarm instructions cover this.
Really? Do they consider that interconnect conductor to be a class 2 circuit (or something of that nature if not actual class 2)? What about the fact that it is mixed in with non power limited conductors at every device?

Not saying you are wrong, just doesn't seem quite right based on what the requirements would be for most anything involving any other power limited circuits.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Really? Do they consider that interconnect conductor to be a class 2 circuit (or something of that nature if not actual class 2)? What about the fact that it is mixed in with non power limited conductors at every device?

Not saying you are wrong, just doesn't seem quite right based on what the requirements would be for most anything involving any other power limited circuits.

I really can't answer those questions, I just know that some instructions cover it and it has come up before on the forums.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
Really? Do they consider that interconnect conductor to be a class 2 circuit (or something of that nature if not actual class 2)? What about the fact that it is mixed in with non power limited conductors at every device?

Not saying you are wrong, just doesn't seem quite right based on what the requirements would be for most anything involving any other power limited circuits.

I also would like to know this.
We install detectors in our buildings and when we interconnect them we pull the interconnect in the same conduit that the feed is in. is that legal?
I think so but what does everyone else think?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I also would like to know this.
We install detectors in our buildings and when we interconnect them we pull the interconnect in the same conduit that the feed is in. is that legal?
I think so but what does everyone else think?

I don't think that is n issue using the appropriate insulation the question was whether it could be run separately with just an individual wire.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
We were doing this here in NJ at one point in time. The powers to be determined that the control units for burg/FA systems were being removed from the residences after the original HO's moved out. Having 120V interconnected smoke alarms along with FA systems was mandatory. I believe that's changed now because the control units and smoke detectors are considered an appurtenance to the house and cannot be removed. Even though the monitoring contract expires the system is a stand alone working system.

Nope, still the same.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
You could run a single THHN for this, some smoke alarm instructions cover this.

Not these from Kidde
Wiring Requirements
?This smoke alarm should be installed on a U.L. listed or
recognized junction box. All connections should be made
by a qualified electrician and all wiring used shall be in
accordance with articles 210 and 300.3(B) of the U.S.
National Electrical Code ANSI/NFPA 70, NFPA 72 and/or
any other codes having jurisdiction in your area. The mul-
tiple station interconnect wiring to the alarms must be
run in the same raceway or cable as the AC power
wiring. In addition, the resistance of the interconnect
wiring shall be a maximum of 10 ohms.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
from BRK which also seems not to allow a separate thhn for the signal wire.. How old are those instructions you have Bob?



? Installation of this unit must conform to the electrical
codes in your area; Articles 210 and 300.3 (B) of NFPA 70
(NEC), NFPA 72, NFPA 101; SBC (SBCCI); UBC (ICBO);
NBC (BOCA); OTFDC (CABO), and any other local or
building codes that may apply. Wiring and installation must
be performed by a licensed electrician. Failure to follow
these guidelines may result in injuryor property damage.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
over the years I have seen a few problems with the interconnect between smokes, while most of the time the neutral will not be long enough to cause a problem but remember that the interconnect is using the neutral as part of the 9 volt DC path to trip the other alarms, in most of the problems I have seen was where someone wired the smokes to each rooms power, in many cases this was putting the smokes on different circuits.

while in most cases this might not cause a problem but if the run is very long I.E. from that room to the panel back up to another smoke can cause problems with the interconnect having enough voltage to signal the other smokes, remember we are only talking about 9 volts, and a very limited current to begin with, the resistance of the neutral can further limit the amount of current the other smokes will receive and may not allow them to alarm.

Now for the second problem I have run into, think about what would happen if you lost the neutral to one of the smoke circuits, you would now have 120 volts on that neutral, would the interconnect care? It could since the other smokes are still referencing the neutral on their circuit, this would put the interconnect circuit in series with this 120 volts by going through the lost neutral smoke and back feeding the other smokes from the red wire? will this cause failures? well in one case I had 3 out of 7 smokes that had failed interconnects, re-fed them on one circuit (Hall) which put them on one circuit with one common neutral and the interconnect problem went away.

Wiring them on only one circuit that has the same neutral will not do the above as loosing the neutral will just put both the interconnect and the neutral at the same potential, of course loosing a neutral between two smoke would not be good.

I have never just wired smokes on different circuits, I usually put them on a single circuit that is used allot like a kitchen lighting or hall or bedroom lighting, so if it is out they at least have it fixed, for this reason I also never put them on their own circuit.

The simple workings of how they cause the other smokes to sound is nothing but a 9 volt DC voltage sent from the tripped smoke to the others, they started using this voltage so the interconnect would still work even if the smoke was being powered by just the battery.

So with the above known you should see that testing the interconnect is doing nothing more then touching a 9 volt battery negative to the neutral and the positive to the red interconnect wire should cause the smoke to sound, there is a dropping resistor on the output of each smoke to protect it from over voltage and interconnect shorts but when hit with 120 volts it well e'rrr lets say smokes, then the interconnect is gone, I'm surprised Gar hasn't posted any reverse engineering on smokes as he has on other devices, I did this to find a way to test the interconnects after having to just replace a whole house full of smokes, after seeing we can test them we saved allot of money by only replacing the ones that were bad.

So even if a single wire is allowed by code, my vote would be no don't do it because of the problems of putting the smokes on different circuits can cause you many problems.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Better place a call down to the DCA and double check. If it was your house would you want both a smoke detector and a smoke alarm in every required location ?

It has nothing to do with what I want, and everything to do with what the code requires. And yes, I've had this conversation with Mike Whelan. He thinks it's crazy too, but it am what it am until someone amends the IBC in suitable fashion.
 

aftershock

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
I worked down in Texas back in 2009 and in Bryan/College Station they have to wire the smokes on the same circuit as the room they were in, so the used 18 ga wire to interconnect. Here in Memphis,TN we use 3 wire between smokes.
 
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