Arc-Fault again

[cowboyjwc]

How are you guys dealing with the requirements of 210.12 and 210.4(B) especially in custom homes?

Mostly two wire home runs or 2-2 cable?

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I strictly use 2 wire homeruns. I don't mess with MWBC's and AFCI's.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have never used mwbc in a home. 12/2 or 14/2 since no one stocks 14/2/2 or 12/2/2

 

[infinity]

For a large home with long home runs I would opt for 14/2/2 or 12/2/2 even if I had to special order it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Thanks, wasn't the original inspector on this house. Just went to cover for another inspector who was at training.

Told the contractor that he should talk to his inspector and he asked me to just look around. :blink: First thing I see is that receptacles are not TR, exterior outlets are not WR, multi wire branch circuits feeding an AFCI on one circuit and a regular breaker on another, (they both needed to be AFCI), and incandesent can lights, without enclosed trims, in the closets. In the second 5 minutes I was there, I tried to explain why I couldn't release his meter.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Oh and off topic, but it's my thread so I can do that.

Go by a house today for a service change, using old panel as a pull box, two conduits going over to new panel, one containing, 10 red wires, and the other containing 10 white wires and 10 ground wires.

Now I can't remember the last time I've seen this and now I've seen it twice in two weeks.

Oh and that was the fix because they originally tried to back feed the old main breaker and couldn't find a clip for it (old Zinsco).

 

[jxofaltrds]

John

You guys have legalized 'dope' out there correct?

 

[cowboyjwc]

John

You guys have legalized 'dope' out there correct?

Some day's you would think so Mike.

But such is the life of an inspector one day it's sign off, sign off, sign off and the next day it's, here's your correction notice, what do you mean you've never heard of this before, or Yeah, I'm sorry but this is so wrong that I don't even know where to start.:happyyes:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It amazes me how these guys got licenses-- of course it is probably the helpers doing the work with no supervision from the EC

 

[hillbilly1]

Yeah, and these are not even nit picking items, pretty straight forward violations.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It amazes me how these guys got licenses-- of course it is probably the helpers doing the work with no supervision from the EC

In Ohio back in 2001 any and everyone that could prove that they did specialty (5 trades) contracting work got a 'free' license. Grandfathered.

They had to do that because of the law. A much higher standard today:

http://com.ohio.gov/dico/OCILB.aspx

 

[cowboyjwc]

Yeah, and these are not even nit picking items, pretty straight forward violations.

I'm not much of a nit picker, I'll point out the nit pickey stuff and tell them not to do that or clean it up next time.

I will give the contractor his due though, he called this morning and admitted that missing the TR receptacles was a mistake on his part and also the trims on the closet lights, but I did find out that like a lot of people he mistook the word "outlet" to mean "receptacle" so he doesn't have the lights on Arc faults and he had never heard about the WR GFCI receptacles.

Of course that kind of takes us back to Dennis's comment.

The times are a changing and you have to keep up. I wish sometimes that I could get all of the local contractors together and we would just have a short 1/2 code update class, but that doesn't solve my problem with all of the out of towners.

 

[texie]

I'm not much of a nit picker, I'll point out the nit pickey stuff and tell them not to do that or clean it up next time.

I will give the contractor his due though, he called this morning and admitted that missing the TR receptacles was a mistake on his part and also the trims on the closet lights, but I did find out that like a lot of people he mistook the word "outlet" to mean "receptacle" so he doesn't have the lights on Arc faults and he had never heard about the WR GFCI receptacles.

Of course that kind of takes us back to Dennis's comment.

The times are a changing and you have to keep up. I wish sometimes that I could get all of the local contractors together and we would just have a short 1/2 code update class, but that doesn't solve my problem with all of the out of towners.

Being an old schooler like you, it saddens and amazes me the lack of training, technical skills, ethics, etc that I see on a regular basis in our trade and all the trades today.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I'm not much of a nit picker, I'll point out the nit pickey stuff and tell them not to do that or clean it up next time.

I will give the contractor his due though, he called this morning and admitted that missing the TR receptacles was a mistake on his part and also the trims on the closet lights, but I did find out that like a lot of people he mistook the word "outlet" to mean "receptacle" so he doesn't have the lights on Arc faults and he had never heard about the WR GFCI receptacles.

Of course that kind of takes us back to Dennis's comment.

The times are a changing and you have to keep up. I wish sometimes that I could get all of the local contractors together and we would just have a short 1/2 code update class, but that doesn't solve my problem with all of the out of towners.

Out of Towners. Where might they be from? Out of the country?

Isn't all of Ca on the same code?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Being an old schooler like you, it saddens and amazes me the lack of training, technical skills, ethics, etc that I see on a regular basis in our trade and all the trades today.

Me too, but it's all about speed and the bottom dollar now. Quality has become an after thought.

Out of Towners. Where might they be from? Out of the country?
Isn't all of Ca on the same code?

You sure couldn't tell that by me. You have to remember that within a hundred miles of me I probably have 20 or more jurisdictions. And I tell people all the time, I don't care what they let you do in _________.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Me too, but it's all about speed and the bottom dollar now. Quality has become an after thought.




You sure couldn't tell that by me. You have to remember that within a hundred miles of me I probably have 20 or more jurisdictions. And I tell people all the time, I don't care what they let you do in _________.

Insert Hooterville.

 

[DARUSA]

I do not believe that be out from this country have something to do with the trade cualification.
I'm from other country and I spend a lot of time reading books ,taking class and reading this forum in order to be a cualified electrician.
As a foreman that I am is so hard for me some times to explain the company that a code complian ,nice and nite job will take more time that a junky job.
Also I put all my effort to try to do evrything correct to be proud of my job and when the inspectors come there is no way to be sure that you did the correct job because some time the inspector have a different interpretation of the rules that most of other people have.
An exemple of this is the jumper on the water meter , I beleive this is no necesary if the point of connection of your EGC is made before of the meter on the street side of the water pipe ,but an inspector require me to install it in an inspection it was no way to explain him my point of view, guess what I install it in order to pass the inspection,now the next job I install it again because it is not so expensive installation to fight for and guess what, different inspector says it is not necesary . He was correct but the other force me to do it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I do not believe that be out from this country have something to do with the trade cualification.
I'm from other country and I spend a lot of time reading books ,taking class and reading this forum in order to be a cualified electrician.
As a foreman that I am is so hard for me some times to explain the company that a code complian ,nice and nite job will take more time that a junky job.
Also I put all my effort to try to do evrything correct to be proud of my job and when the inspectors come there is no way to be sure that you did the correct job because some time the inspector have a different interpretation of the rules that most of other people have.
An exemple of this is the jumper on the water meter , I beleive this is no necesary if the point of connection of your EGC is made before of the meter on the street side of the water pipe ,but an inspector require me to install it in an inspection it was no way to explain him my point of view, guess what I install it in order to pass the inspection,now the next job I install it again because it is not so expensive installation to fight for and guess what, different inspector says it is not necesary . He was correct but the other force me to do it.

You 'jumper' the meter because it isolates (at least use to) the interior water lines. That jumper 'bonds' the interior line. Understand?

 

[DARUSA]

250.104 (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

 

[hillbilly1]

The reason the inspector required it is because if the meter is removed for maintenance , and you are bonded on the street side, continuity would be lost on the house side.