electric vehicle charging

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mnbiker

mnbiker

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st.paul mn
Good day, I was asked this morning to look into an electric vehicle charging station, to be installed in a parking area of our main office building. they would like to be able to charge 2 cars at once. I have looked on-line at a few, but i would like some real life information on the install on one of these units. Do these unit give a read-out of how much power the car used. thanks for any info. Ichabod
 
There is a lot of manufactures out there, GE, Eaton, Blink and many others. Some are basic, while others are Internet connected to show charger availability, or even to reserve a charger. Just depends on how fancy you want to get.
 
mnbiker said:
an electric vehicle charging station
charge 2 cars at once
Do these unit give a read-out of how much power the car used
Click to expand...
I've heard 12 to 15 kwh of energy per car and there are probably limits as to how fast you can dump this energy back into the batteries.

If the battery is 90% efficient during charging and your charger is 95% efficient and it needed 10 kwh to top it off then your AC energy input would be (10/[0.9x0.95]) = 11.7 kwh, assuming a PF of 1.0.

If you put in 15 kwh of AC then your battery used 15x0.9x0.95 = 12.8 kwh.

Decide on what features you want and plot a price vs. performance graph for several makers. The good buys and bad buys will be obvious on this graph.
 
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The level 2 DC Eaton units have a readout at the charger, but they take a 200 amp 208 three phase feed (or 100 amp at 480). The Blink units have a touch screen display that shows amount energy used and other data. The GE and Eaton level 2 AC units have only a ready and fault lights, but the Eaton units do have Internet connectivity, I don't know about the GE units. But those three only require a 40 amp 208/240 volt single phase circuit.
 
G._S._Ohm said:
Decide on what features you want and plot a price vs. performance graph for several makers. The good buys and bad buys will be obvious on this graph.
Click to expand...

Since you were asked to do a study, G_S idea sounds perfect!

You could continue the study by showing the charge amps each potential recipient can accept - I think you will find 240v/20a/4kw charge rate is probably the most common. This can help define the overall charger size you should recommend.

You could also show WHO might use it. Is it for employees? IF so, what charge rates do they require? I doubt it though since 100% electric cars are still pretty rare, unless you are a supplier for them (in which case you would not be asking this question).

I can't imagine hybrid owners to much care as they can simply charge themselves.

Since it is probably not for employees, who then? customers? Does this make sense in MN yet? what is the range of 100% electric cars today? I think typically 40-120 miles (20-60KWh batteries).... a little math and at typical 100mpg, with 37KW=1gal equivalence these electrics can go about 10-30 miles one way (it is very hard to go further while watching the charge meter, knowing you need to go at least the same distance back). Do you have 2 customers within this distance of your office? I cannot bring myself to begin any trip over 45-50 miles round trip in my 60-80 mile range 100% electric. OUtside temperature also effects max trip length - at 20 degrees out I get 60 mile range, at 80 degrees I get 80 miles. MN is mighty cold as I recall: my range would likely be closer to 45 miles with the electric heater on the whole way....

And if they do come upto say 30 miles then they won't need the charge station. If they plan the trip for over 30-40 mile trip to your office and need to charge, will they be there the 3-5 hours needed to recharge 10-20kw?

I would be very interested in seeing your study when complete! I would like to request a copy if you are willing to share all the good data compilation!
 
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mike_kilroy said:
Since you were asked to do a study, G_S idea sounds perfect!

You could continue the study by showing the charge amps each potential recipient can accept - I think you will find 240v/20a/4kw charge rate is probably the most common. This can help define the overall charger size you should recommend.

You could also show WHO might use it. Is it for employees? IF so, what charge rates do they require? I doubt it though since 100% electric cars are still pretty rare, unless you are a supplier for them (in which case you would not be asking this question).

I can't imagine hybrid owners to much care as they can simply charge themselves.

Since it is probably not for employees, who then? customers? Does this make sense in MN yet? what is the range of 100% electric cars today? I think typically 40-120 miles (20-60KWh batteries).... a little math and at typical 100mpg, with 37KW=1gal equivalence these electrics can go about 10-30 miles one way (it is very hard to go further while watching the charge meter, knowing you need to go at least the same distance back). Do you have 2 customers within this distance of your office? I cannot bring myself to begin any trip over 45-50 miles round trip in my 60-80 mile range 100% electric. OUtside temperature also effects max trip length - at 20 degrees out I get 60 mile range, at 80 degrees I get 80 miles. MN is mighty cold as I recall: my range would likely be closer to 45 miles with the electric heater on the whole way....

And if they do come upto say 30 miles then they won't need the charge station. If they plan the trip for over 30-40 mile trip to your office and need to charge, will they be there the 3-5 hours needed to recharge 10-20kw?

I would be very interested in seeing your study when complete! I would like to request a copy if you are willing to share all the good data compilation!
Click to expand...

One of the manufactures that we install for says that Minnesota is a hard sell because of the cold winters. The short range of electric cars is shortened even more. Looks like they will be just a summer vehicle there.
 
mnbiker said:
Good day, I was asked this morning to look into an electric vehicle charging station, to be installed in a parking area of our main office building. they would like to be able to charge 2 cars at once. I have looked on-line at a few, but i would like some real life information on the install on one of these units. Do these unit give a read-out of how much power the car used. thanks for any info. Ichabod
Click to expand...
Chevy Volt owner here... First thing you should look at is how much power you want to supply. A lot of the EVs on the road have a maximum load of 3.3 kW. (like my Volt) Some of the newer electric-only cars are 6.6 kW. The RAV4 EV max is 10 kW and the Tesla Roadster is 16.8 kW. Of course the charging station will tell the car how much power it's allowed to use. The most common public Level 2 charging station seems to be 208/240V @ 32A (on a 40A circuit)

Second thing you've got to decide is if you really need the data recording feature. If so, do you need to break it down by individual, or are you just looking for the total amount of power consumed by the chargers? (in which case a sub-meter might be all that's needed) Level 2 EVSEs typically cost $1500 - $3000 for "dumb" units and $4000 - $8000 for "smart" ones. A nice dual-head station with RFID from Coloumb is at least $8500, or you could buy a pair of Clipper Creek CS-40 units for $3800. Personally, I prefer the "dumb" stations because there's less work involved when you plug in. There's already a handful of different networks, each with their own RFID card. Chargepoint (Coloumb's network) seems to be the most prevalent, and I was able to obtain cards for free.

You should also see what government incentives are available where you are. I know there was funding here in BC that covered 3/4 the cost of the unit, but they also mandated that you install a "smart" unit that reported consumption. They have a substantially complete list of such units.

hillbilly1 said:
The level 2 DC Eaton units have a readout at the charger, but they take a 200 amp 208 three phase feed (or 100 amp at 480). The Blink units have a touch screen display that shows amount energy used and other data. The GE and Eaton level 2 AC units have only a ready and fault lights, but the Eaton units do have Internet connectivity, I don't know about the GE units. But those three only require a 40 amp 208/240 volt single phase circuit.
Click to expand...
A large DC unit like you describe would be a Level 3 charging station. No point in putting in one of those as very few of the electric cars can even connect to such a beast, let alone the $25,000 price tag.
 
Rampage_Rick said:
Chevy Volt owner here... First thing you should look at is how much power you want to supply. A lot of the EVs on the road have a maximum load of 3.3 kW. (like my Volt) Some of the newer electric-only cars are 6.6 kW. The RAV4 EV max is 10 kW and the Tesla Roadster is 16.8 kW. Of course the charging station will tell the car how much power it's allowed to use. The most common public Level 2 charging station seems to be 208/240V @ 32A (on a 40A circuit)

Second thing you've got to decide is if you really need the data recording feature. If so, do you need to break it down by individual, or are you just looking for the total amount of power consumed by the chargers? (in which case a sub-meter might be all that's needed) Level 2 EVSEs typically cost $1500 - $3000 for "dumb" units and $4000 - $8000 for "smart" ones. A nice dual-head station with RFID from Coloumb is at least $8500, or you could buy a pair of Clipper Creek CS-40 units for $3800. Personally, I prefer the "dumb" stations because there's less work involved when you plug in. There's already a handful of different networks, each with their own RFID card. Chargepoint (Coloumb's network) seems to be the most prevalent, and I was able to obtain cards for free.

You should also see what government incentives are available where you are. I know there was funding here in BC that covered 3/4 the cost of the unit, but they also mandated that you install a "smart" unit that reported consumption. They have a substantially complete list of such units.

A large DC unit like you describe would be a Level 3 charging station. No point in putting in one of those as very few of the electric cars can even connect to such a beast, let alone the $25,000 price tag.
Click to expand...

Have not seen any of the Coloumb units, the majority of the dumb units down here are GE, and Eaton, with Ecotality (Blink) being the majority smart units, there is an app for their locations. The large DC units are not called level 3 by the manufacture, I've installed them, and the manufacture calls them level 2 DC. The one I installed was so new the listing company had to come out and list it on site.
 
Thanks for the information, Right now we have just two chevy volts at the plant, the owner and a V.P. of the I.T. department. The v.p. has a long commute and wants to recharge when he gets to work and thats how it all began. I was asked to look into this and just put in a 30 amp 208 volt recepticle for now, and come spring maybe add a charging station. thanks again.
 
mnbiker said:
Thanks for the information, Right now we have just two chevy volts at the plant, the owner and a V.P. of the I.T. department. The v.p. has a long commute and wants to recharge when he gets to work and thats how it all began. I was asked to look into this and just put in a 30 amp 208 volt recepticle for now, and come spring maybe add a charging station. thanks again.
Click to expand...

I would put in a 40 amp circuit, most level 2 chargers are set up for that input, though some can be configured for a lower output. All the chargers do is control a contactor anyway, the charger is built into the car. The first Eaton chargers required a neutral due to the contactor coil being 120 volt, that way the charger could be used on 208 or 240 volt single phase circuits. The newer ones now do not require a neutral. Sounds like your charger would not be for public use, so one of the cheaper ones like the GE would work fine for that. The GE is plug and cord connected, so you will need a 50 two pole three wire straight blade receptacle (same as a buzz box welder receptacle) You can hard wire if needed though.
 
Rampage_Rick said:
Chevy Volt owner here... First thing you should look at is how much power you want to supply. A lot of the EVs on the road have a maximum load of 3.3 kW. (like my Volt) Some of the newer electric-only cars are 6.6 kW. The RAV4 EV max is 10 kW and the Tesla Roadster is 16.8 kW. Of course the charging station will tell the car how much power it's allowed to use. The most common public Level 2 charging station seems to be 208/240V @ 32A (on a 40A circuit)

Second thing you've got to decide is if you really need the data recording feature. If so, do you need to break it down by individual, or are you just looking for the total amount of power consumed by the chargers? (in which case a sub-meter might be all that's needed) Level 2 EVSEs typically cost $1500 - $3000 for "dumb" units and $4000 - $8000 for "smart" ones. A nice dual-head station with RFID from Coloumb is at least $8500, or you could buy a pair of Clipper Creek CS-40 units for $3800. Personally, I prefer the "dumb" stations because there's less work involved when you plug in. There's already a handful of different networks, each with their own RFID card. Chargepoint (Coloumb's network) seems to be the most prevalent, and I was able to obtain cards for free.

You should also see what government incentives are available where you are. I know there was funding here in BC that covered 3/4 the cost of the unit, but they also mandated that you install a "smart" unit that reported consumption. They have a substantially complete list of such units.

A large DC unit like you describe would be a Level 3 charging station. No point in putting in one of those as very few of the electric cars can even connect to such a beast, let alone the $25,000 price tag.
Click to expand...

Rick,
Great reply. Is the Level 3 you mention, by any chance the new TESLA SUPERCHARGER? It is capable of charging the TESLA Model 'S' for a 120 mile range in about thirty minutes. rbj
 
G._S._Ohm said:
12 kwh in 0.5 hr is 24 kw. These batteries must be liquid cooled during charging or they are taking an awful beating.
Click to expand...

From what I've been told by the manufacture, there is a temperature sensor at the batteries that the charger can read and adjust the charge accordingly, they probably don't fully charge the batteries. They also do not recommend using the quick charger very often.
 
hillbilly1 said:
One of the manufactures that we install for says that Minnesota is a hard sell because of the cold winters. The short range of electric cars is shortened even more. Looks like they will be just a summer vehicle there.
Click to expand...
As someone building one, the other issue is lack of waste heat to warm cabin and defrost the windshield.
 
heat

heat

Open Neutral said:
As someone building one, the other issue is lack of waste heat to warm cabin and defrost the windshield.
Click to expand...

You can consider method mine uses: keep old radiator, piping, heater core intact. buy a small inline (350vdc in my case) electric heater with built in 180degree thermostat, add small electric pump, and put in series with OEM cooling system. Nice warm heat faster than normal ICE, but be prepared for about 0-20% range loss if used 0-full time.....
 
gndrod said:
Rick,
Great reply. Is the Level 3 you mention, by any chance the new TESLA SUPERCHARGER? It is capable of charging the TESLA Model 'S' for a 120 mile range in about thirty minutes. rbj
Click to expand...
The Tesla Supercharger is one of several competing Level 3 EVSE standards. The Supercharger is proprietory to Tesla, whereas the current industry standard is CHAdeMO. Just recently there was a revision to the J1772 standard which adds high-current DC terminals to the standard Level 1/2 round J1772-2009 plug used by most EVs.

Level 1 - Can charge from a normal receptacle (120V 12A max) using AC/DC converter built into car.
Level 2 - Faster charge using dedicated circuit (typically 240V 32A) using AC/DC converter in car.
Level 3 - Dumps high-voltage high-current DC straight into the car's battery, bypassing the AC/DC converter.

Here's CHAdeMO and the new J1772-2012 Level 3 connector:
wheels-plugs-blog480.jpg
 
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