EC wanting Square D to come set up the switchgeer

[wallypiper]

In addition, this code sections requires the GF system to be tested, not just the relay (which is all the push-to-test button does). Testing the system requires verifying the absence of downstream neutral-ground bonds.

If the OP has never seen testing of a GF system, it is no wonder he has seen 'nuisance trips'.

Properly commissioning equipment and systems, is your best hope for them doing what they are supposed to, when they are supposed to do it.

Yeah. I knew where it was in the code. I've just never witnessed anybody doing the testing. Where do you guys work? I don't mean what company but what kind of projects? I know you're all very professional and straight shooters. Have you never seen a 4000 amp gear put into service without the GF test? Never seen it trip as soon as somebody energizes another panel somewhere or turns on a motor? Never seen an electrician go raise the setting and try it again? I'm not saying that happens on every site I'm on but I've certainly seen it more than once. Maybe you don't talk about that kind of thing here.

 

[jim dungar]

Honestly I would say that fewer than 50% of the installations in my area are properly commissioned. Although the percentage goes up very fast for installations >2000A, 480V
However they are becoming much more common. It doesn't take too many instances of backcharges due to shutting down a department store on opening day or delaying the start up of a process line for an EC, and owner, to decide that many commissioning fees are not unreasonable.

With the advent of NFPA70E implementation, even on new construction projects, we now see many EC that are reluctant to make any protective device setting without someone signing off on them.

 

[brian john]

Interesting. WWTP and WTP. Waste water treatment plants?
That's a very different environment from a manufacturing plant I would think. I've never been involved with one.

We perform electrical testing in Data Centers, hospitals, industrial facilities, government facilities, anywhere reliability of service is important

I've never seen a contractor or a factory technician test the function of the component parts of swtichgear on a job site. They set the different trip dials, sometimes. The very thorough ones hi-pot their wiring. Lots don't. I've seen plenty of big switchgear energized for the first time as soon as the inspector says OK and put in service immediately. Most of the time that has nothing to do with us other than the power to our equipment is coming from that gear. We often have nothing to do with the electrical side of a project beyond the things that are directly part of the equipment we supply so I just let the EC know when I'm ready for power to my equipment and he turns it on. Often, I am the first to ask for power because our equipment is prerequisite for all the other equipment. So I do often see the main on the gear turned on for the first time. Sometimes the EC comes over and checks the incoming lines at my panel with a handheld mm, sometimes I do that myself. And I've tripped plenty of breakers at the switchgear the first time I turn on a motor because all the dials are still set to their minimum. I've seen GF trips for the same reason.

And on jobs where a coordination study is completed and the system is set and tested, random tripping is avoided. The thought of just powering up distribution equipment is not only strange to me it is dangerous to you and anyone around when the gear is energized for the first time.

 

[hurk27]

Are many AHJ's satisfied that the protection is there and don't care about the testing? Or is it just getting done by the EC at some point when I wasn't around. I've seen them trip a few times as soon as the gear is energized because they're still set to some minimum level. And then usually somebody turns it up until it stops tripping.

In some cases AHJ's don't even inspect gear when it's live as they inspect before power is even supplied, as they are the ones that give the go ahead to have the POCO hook up, as I said in some cases, some areas they do, but in most states they are not in the liability chain when something goes wrong either, you can have a code compliant install and things can still go wrong.

Now the part of just turning the dials till it stops tripping, well all I can say is your company has been lucky or you would not be here asking these questions, the whole reason the NEC requires a GFP on services above 1k amps with more then 150 volts to ground is even conduit has its limits on how much fault current it can handle, if a person or worker was to accidentally cause such a fault and the GFP was not properly tested and or set to high, this fault can cause an arc flash that could seriously injure or kill a person, now when the layers hire the forensic investigators and find that there was never a true commissioning of the gear or that the right settings were never obtained for the GFP or was it tested, who ever made the choice of just turning the dials up till it stops tripping as well as anyone else in the chain of liability including the poor electrician who just did what he was told to do because he didn't know better, will all have a part in the wrath of the judge as responsible parties, even signing a liability release is no good as you can not sign off on liability, also remember criminal charges can and has been brought against workers in many areas across America, I know of a few electricians sitting in prison for the mistakes they made with charges of man slaughter against them because they did what they were told to do, and it caused a death.

Setting the dials is a job for an engineer that is trained and qualified to know the system and wiring and what setting the dial must be set at, as I said before most electricians would not have the qualifications to make these settings, and even if an engineer told me what to set them at I would not be the one setting them as I would politely tell the engineer that since he is the responsible party I can not become part of that responsibility, you also need to think about this when you yourself gets involved with making choices to do some of the work yourself, how will you be held accountable if something were to go wrong?

Now I don't expect you to take my word or anyone else here for that matter, but it is up to you to find the truth for yourself, a good start is talk to your insurance carrier, talk to a good injury lawyer, find out because the law can and will hold you responsible because ignorance of the law is not an excuse as it is up to you to learn what you can or can not do, don't wait till it happens as that is always too late, have one serious accident happen and you will wish you would have taken the time to protect yourself and learned the above, don't just keep doing things because in the past you manage to come out ok, because all it takes is one time and your life as well as the life of the ones you love will never be the same.

I have had to many time turn down helping out a customer who might ask me to hook up a dryer or a washer, you would think what would it hurt as it would save my customer paying someone else they would have to hire to do it, but when it comes down that if that gas pipe was defective or water hose, my liability insurance would not cover me doing work outside my scope of work, and this poor customer if some one were injured or killed would not help me as they would also be fighting their own battle from being included in the same lawsuit, it is a chance I can not or will not take, as I can loose everything I have worked so hard to get over just trying to be nice.

I didn't want to sound so harsh, but you are here because you do not know, you have made statements that lets me know you do not understand the chain of liability, this is why you need to do the research to find the truth as I pointed out above, before something does happen, I myself have done this because I don't want to find it out sitting in front of a judge, when its too late to make a change, remember when an electrician touches something he is not qualified to set, then he becomes part of the liability chain. and their is no paper work that can remove this liability NONE!

After 37 years in this buisness, I have heard all the "oh can you just adjust it till it don't trip" or "Can you just remove the GFCI because it keeps tripping on the outside christmas lights" Nope, Nope, and Nope!!!

Sorry, but Welcome to the forum

 

[iceworm]

Yeah. I knew where it was in the code. I've just never witnessed anybody doing the testing. Where do you guys work? I don't mean what company but what kind of projects? I know you're all very professional and straight shooters. Have you never seen a 4000 amp gear put into service without the GF test? Never seen it trip as soon as somebody energizes another panel somewhere or turns on a motor? Never seen an electrician go raise the setting and try it again? I'm not saying that happens on every site I'm on but I've certainly seen it more than once. Maybe you don't talk about that kind of thing here.

Wally -
For an outfit that sells a lot of switchgear you are asking some interesting questions. According to your earlier posts you have a third party engineering firm handing you the specs and drawings for the switchgear - but not the coordination study. Odd.

And no, not on any job I've been on. The GFP is set to the value specified in the coordingatin study. To walk in and change just because someone didn't like it would generally be considered a capital offense.

I agree with some of the others - you are only giving us half the story. I suspect there is a damn good reason the contractor does not want to set the breakers. If I had to guess, it is because she doesn't like the poor/lacking coordination study. You keep saying the EE will supply the settings. I'm wondering why they haven't already been done - like before the switchgear was ordered.

We have never been asked to bring a factory technician in to commission switch gear. It has always been handled by the installing electrical contractor and it is part of the scope they bid on. I wasn't really asking if it was their responsibility. It most definitely is.

We contacted Square D.
They confirmed that commissioning was not included in their quote to us and quoted us a price (not unreasonable) for tech to come to the jobsite. They said of course the somebody, the EE preferably, would have to provide the appropriate settings for the tech to apply. The owner had requested, directly to the EC, that the "safeties" be checked. Square D's response was they did not know what was being referred to but would be happy to perform whatever tests the owner wanted performed.

I'm getting mixed messages here. If the commissioning was part of the ECs contract you would not have called SQD. I'm guessing it is not part of the EC contract to do any commissioning.

What's normal? I've been on a lot of sites with new gear and don't remember ever seeing the switchgear manufacturer on site unless there was a problem with the gear of some part of it.

Normal for me: Rarely ever (maybe even never) does the EC do switchgear commissioning. The coordination study/arc flash is part of the documentation to order the switchgear. If not part, all the work for the coordination/arcflash was done, just the report wasn't furnished.

As for the switchgear tech rep showing up, only if it is strange stuff - generally medium voltage, never 480V. If he does show, it is by contract that was part of the purchase agreement.

We don't expect anything to be provided that wasn't purchased but an hour turning dials with a screwdriver? It's a big project and it's dynamic and fast track. The pendulum will swing both ways before it's over - some work not included in the original bid will be required and some work that was included in the original bid will be dropped. Information provided by equipment suppliers when the bid documents are being prepared is inevitably preliminary and incomplete. Changes in the design will happen in response to owner preference, product availability, input from contractors and equipment vendors etc. Equipment will show up with connections on the right instead of the left. Dimensions will be different from the drawings provided earlier. There will be changes. If this project is like many I'll end up doing control terminations that were part of the installation scope because I'm there, they need to be done to keep things moving and all the contractor's are busy with other things that have to be done. I don't ask for money back when that happens. It's just part of the ebb and flow of taking a complex system from a simple concept to a functioning plant and getting it all done on time.

So, if it is an hour, why are you stuck? You are making an awful lot of noise about a "simple job. Are you sure there is not something else?

Wally -
Just curious - are you primarily in sales?

ice

 

[wallypiper]

First, let me clear up an apparent misconception. The EE did do the coordination study and is supplying the settings for the switchgear. The fact that he had not sent them to anybody prior to being asked is really a non-issue. He had the information to provide them and he was intimately involved in selecting the switchgear and no doubt was basically waiting to be asked for them and expecting the request to come from the EC who he was working with on a regular basis on other issues. We've never ended up in the middle of that conversation before whether we involved in the electrical design of the project or not.

No I am not in sales.

We all understand the chain of liability and have been a loud and frequent voice at my company when I see others getting more involved in the electrical design portion of a project than they should be, or answering questions they shouldn't answer. We do have insurance and have talked to our insurance company about the various types of liability we might take on and we have a lawyer and have to him about those issues as well. Nobody in the company that makes decisions about something that might involve that does so in a vacuum. All of us have been in the business of providing and installing industrial equipment for 20-30 years. We've worked all over the US and around the world. One thing that gives us is an appreciation for the variation in things like permitting and inspections in different places. Doing a project in Flatfield, IN is very different from doing one in Los Angeles.

There are a couple of people in the company that are all too ready to provide half baked information to a contractor. On the other hand, it can sometimes be very difficult to get the correct information from equipment OEM's and the EE on the job, whether he's working for us or for the EC or directly for the owner is usually waiting for that information. I frequently ask for MCA on a piece of equipment with multiple loads being fed from a single main power feed and get a moment of silence from the OEM. They then give me FLA or connected KW and don't understand why I consider that insufficient. That is an especially common problem with equipment sourced from Europe where, apparently, they do things differently but is not, by any means limited to European sourced equipment. We design and provide custom equipment that includes control panels and also provide standalone control panels for various applications. But the panels, in all cases, are built by UL shops to UL508 and labeled. The power design portion of those panels is pretty simple - motor circuits, variable speed drives, resistance heaters. The controls vary from simple start/stop to pretty extensive PLC controlled automation.

When we are asked to include the electrical design of a project in our scope, we utilize a licensed electrical engineer to do that work for us. He did the design on the project in question in this thread and the electrical drawings and specs are published under his name on his titleblock. We are certainly in the chain because he is working for us but we don't have the expertise to evaluate the accuracy or correctness of his work. Perhaps we should hire somebody to do that but he is a experienced licensed engineer and we count on him to do his job correctly. We do review his power distribution drawings for agreement with the data we have in terms of equipment and loads.

When I talk about seeing somebody turn up a dial to stop a breaker or GFP from tripping, be assured that it's not done by me or under my direction. If I start a 20 HP motor on my equipment and the whole place immediately goes dark, I am not reluctant to say "that's probably a ground fault trip" because that's the simple truth. I check my equipment for obvious shorts to ground, just with typical Fluke mm and, if there are none, I let the EC know that but he is welcome to check for himself.

We don't sell a lot of switchgear. But we are asked to source it on occasion and we know where to buy it. We don't design it and don't pretend to. We either have the manufacturer spec it out for us based on the load information we provide or it's specced by an engineer and we're just a "broker", shopping for the best price and delivery. That's what happened on this project. The issue of commissioning switchgear, whatever scope of work you include in that category, has never, not once, been brought up before when we supplied the gear. Perhaps in past jobs, the EC has just willingly done that using either his own in house capability or subbing it out to a specialist and it was done without my involvement. However, I am pretty certain that, whether it's gear supplied by us or gear supplied by the EC or purchased directly by the owner, I have undoubtedly been on sites where the gear was connected, inspected and energized in pretty short order. I expect that in some cases the EC, under pressure to get the power turned on so that other parts of the project can move forward, does the minimum and get's it powered up. Is that dangerous? Obviously. But it's not my responsibility or my decision. Even if we supply it, I would never insist that it be powered up if the the EC isn't comfortable doing so. But I do depend on them to make that call. Is the gear ready? Is your wiring ready? If not, let me know when. I'm waiting for power. In some locations the process seems meticulous and detailed. In others, casual and even careless. Believe me, I don't stand and stare at the main disconnect in my panels while they turn on the feeder for the first time, regardless of what commissioning I have done or others say they have done.

I never power up one of our panels without thoroughly checking all the power wiring in the panel for loose connections, poorly made connections, wrong connections etc. That's part of my job, as the person responsible for commissioning that equipment. On the rare occasions when I hear or find that my main disconnect has been turned on before I get on site, I approach it with a knot in my stomach because it is rare to go through a panel and find nothing that I think needs correction. I am sometimes stunned by things I find in UL labeled panels, both from a design perspective and assembly. I've been at this a long time. I've seen a lot of things that I consider dumb or dangerous. I have always assumed that somebody does the same type of commissioning on new switchgear that I do on our equipment but I've never seen it done and it's never been an issue. The additional work that's been described here such as functional testing of the devices in the gear, I wouldn't expect to see, frankly. I haven't seen it and never really thought about it. If I buy a circuit breaker I expect it to function. To me, it is the manufacturer that carries all the liability in that situation unless they clearly state that their equipment has to be field tested.

 

[zog]

I check my equipment for obvious shorts to ground, just with typical Fluke mm and, if there are none, I let the EC know that but he is welcome to check for himself.

What do you expect to find with a typical Fluke DMM? Most ground faults will not show up with a DMM, you should at the very least be using a Megger.

we're just a "broker", shopping for the best price and delivery.

If I buy a circuit breaker I expect it to function. To me, it is the manufacturer that carries all the liability in that situation unless they clearly state that their equipment has to be field tested.

You get what you pay for and usually the best price is going to be from a dealer with no idea how the equipment is supposed to function, propery factory adjustments, or the proper test facilities to ensure the equipment functions properly. Proper commisioning tests are even more important when you are buying the best price gear, how do you know if it even works as designed?

 

[wallypiper]

What do you expect to find with a typical Fluke DMM? Most ground faults will not show up with a DMM, you should at the very least be using a Megger.

Actually, in my experience the continuity test on a DMM will detect connections that will not trip correctly set GFPE. The equipment in question has been megged at the factory prior to shipment but things happen. If the DMM doesn't find it and the setting is correct, then a megger is usually brought in but I've never had a megger find something in one of our panels. It does sometimes reveal a problem in the field wiring. Motors are a different story. Do you meg every motor before you run it? I've never seen anybody do that for any equipment I deal with from 2 HP to 600 HP. But they are occasionally the source of GFPE trip. Some motors work when you bump them for rotation and then fail when you run them enough to heat up. I've had to bring in motor experts to track down the source of motor problems. We use a lot of VSD's and it's not unusual for a motor to run OK across the line but trip ground fault detection in a VSD.

You get what you pay for and usually the best price is going to be from a dealer with no idea how the equipment is supposed to function, propery factory adjustments, or the proper test facilities to ensure the equipment functions properly. Proper commisioning tests are even more important when you are buying the best price gear, how do you know if it even works as designed?

Wow. Best price doesn't mean "Cheapest Gear on the Market". That's not how we do business whether we're buying switchgear or chillers or pumps or air compressors or any other product. There's a long list of products we won't put on our projects regardless of price. Getting the best price is more about knowing how to buy than how to shop. We don't do that much shopping.

 

[iceworm]

... Do you meg every motor before you run it? ...

All the 480V (and up) and feeders as well.

ice

 

[petersonra]

I wish more people would meg out field wiring. It is quick and easy to do and would resolve a lot of problems early in the process when they are much less of a PITA to fix.

 

[hillbilly1]

I wish more people would meg out field wiring. It is quick and easy to do and would resolve a lot of problems early in the process when they are much less of a PITA to fix.

Most contractors do not have a megger, let alone know how to use one, but with the pricing of meggers getting lower all the time, more contractors should own one.

 

[brian john]

Originally Posted by wallypiper ... Do you meg every motor before you run it? ...

Switchboards, MDPs, Panel Boards and MCC's

Circuit breakers and fused safety switches (100 amps and over), phase to phase, phase to ground and line to load.

Busway when it hits the job, piece by piece as it goes up then as a piece is added the entire lenght, when completed and seconds prior to energizing.

All feeders

All motors

And the neutral of the completed system with the neutral to ground bond lifted.

 

[weressl]

All the 480V (and up) and feeders as well.

ice

Ya betcha...

 

[wallypiper]

That's remarkable.

I have never seen a newly installed motor get megged without evidence of a problem. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable stating that most equipment OEM's would request that you not meg the motors on their machine unless they request it because there's a problem.
I have hired people to test a motor for me (I don't own a megger as I don't need one often enough to justify hauling it around with me) when there is an obvious problem but a brand new motor that hasn't even been energized on site? No thanks. I will take my chances with the motor manufacturer's quality control. I know they're not perfect. In fact, I JUST authorized a customer to get a motor rewound when it shorted to ground after about 2 hours of operation. Haven't see a report so I don't the nature of the failure but since it ran for two hours on site plus a few minutes at my vendor's facility during pump testing, I'd guess a megger probably wouldn't have spotted a problem unless you got the motor good and hot first.

 

[weressl]

That's remarkable.

I have never seen a newly installed motor get megged without evidence of a problem. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable stating that most equipment OEM's would request that you not meg the motors on their machine unless they request it because there's a problem.

In my 40+ years of experience I've not seen a single 480V or higher voltage motor put in service without Megger or other insulation integrity test.

A motor will not be exposed to potential damage to the same degree that it experiences from the factory to the installation route. That is due to handling, lifting, shipping, etc. from factory warehouse to immediate shipping distribution points, truck to another truck, wholesaler, point seller, OEM suer, OEM equipment distributor route - repeating the distribution routine before - to the use point, storing at the Construction site - probably less than ideal conditions - and moving it to the staging area under field costruction conditions.

I have NEVER seen an OEM staing that they would NOT want us to Meg the supplied motors. If that would be the case, we would either reject the condition of the sale or request them to execute that test themselves in the field after we had completed the mechanical installation.

 

[hillbilly1]

In my 40+ years of experience I've not seen a single 480V or higher voltage motor put in service without Megger or other insulation integrity test.

A motor will not be exposed to potential damage to the same degree that it experiences from the factory to the installation route. That is due to handling, lifting, shipping, etc. from factory warehouse to immediate shipping distribution points, truck to another truck, wholesaler, point seller, OEM suer, OEM equipment distributor route - repeating the distribution routine before - to the use point, storing at the Construction site - probably less than ideal conditions - and moving it to the staging area under field costruction conditions.

I have NEVER seen an OEM staing that they would NOT want us to Meg the supplied motors. If that would be the case, we would either reject the condition of the sale or request them to execute that test themselves in the field after we had completed the mechanical installation.

Must be a regional thing, I have never seen a motor megged that there was already a problem that they suspect might be bad. Even several hundred HP. Fire pumps, chillers, large refrigeration compressors etc. Very uncommon in commercial and light industrial here.

 

[weressl]

Must be a regional thing, I have never seen a motor megged that there was already a problem that they suspect might be bad. Even several hundred HP. Fire pumps, chillers, large refrigeration compressors etc. Very uncommon in commercial and light industrial here.

I had projects throughout the country, it is standard practice in industry.

 

[hillbilly1]

I had projects throughout the country, it is standard practice in industry.

Maybe in your industry, but not everywhere else. I've been all over the country too, and have not seen it. Ice plants, clothing manufacturing plants, water and sewer plants, office buildings, retail buildings, large distribution centers, etc.

 

[wallypiper]

What industry do you work in weressl? My experience is nearly all plastics or can manufacturing plants. I cannot imagine the (deleted) response I would get from the EC if I told him to go meg all 100+ newly installed brand new motors on a job.

 

[brian john]

That's remarkable.

I have never seen a newly installed motor get megged without evidence of a problem. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable stating that most equipment OEM's would request that you not meg the motors on their machine unless they request it because there's a problem.
I have hired people to test a motor for me (I don't own a megger as I don't need one often enough to justify hauling it around with me) when there is an obvious problem but a brand new motor that hasn't even been energized on site? No thanks. I will take my chances with the motor manufacturer's quality control. I know they're not perfect. In fact, I JUST authorized a customer to get a motor rewound when it shorted to ground after about 2 hours of operation. Haven't see a report so I don't the nature of the failure but since it ran for two hours on site plus a few minutes at my vendor's facility during pump testing, I'd guess a megger probably wouldn't have spotted a problem unless you got the motor good and hot first.

I am dead serious and not berating or being sarcastic, what is your background and training.