POCO and Voltage Drop Disagreement

[Open Neutral]

Thanks...just looked it up

There's a contemporaneous thread on same here...

 

[A-1Sparky]

There's a contemporaneous thread on same here...

I checked that out...thanks!

 

[kwired]

See, that's where I am confused on the entire situation. It really isn't the POCO's business as it is on the customers side of the meter. You can run the feeders for a thousand feet if you want to IMO. Voltage drop is determined by the load, why does the POCO try to limit customer wiring if they aren't responsible for it? It reminds me of the post going now where the locate guy took the bond loose like an idiot. Hey, maybe this is the same guy...

My thoughts also, if this is not POCO owned wiring, why do they care?

I can understand not wanting to give them an easement, but unless it serves more than just your property is an easement necessary?

I personally would want the transformer closer than 500 feet most cases. Just adding one load sometime down the road can easily make voltage drop a problem even though capacity is otherwise there.

 

[hurk27]

The problem with re-taping the primary for voltage drop is a motor load start up current will still cause dimming of lights, and as said it will also cause over voltage when the load is less which can shorten the life of lamps as well as electronics, I never suggest re-tapping or buck/boost for voltage drop problems, providing a higher voltage will only provide dimming lights at the higher voltage.

Here is a nifty VD calculator that will also give you the temperature the wire will run at if you want to play with the figures:

VD Calculator

Scroll down the page to get to the calculator

 

[A-1Sparky]

My thoughts also, if this is not POCO owned wiring, why do they care?

I can understand not wanting to give them an easement, but unless it serves more than just your property is an easement necessary?

I personally would want the transformer closer than 500 feet most cases. Just adding one load sometime down the road can easily make voltage drop a problem even though capacity is otherwise there.

I re-measured the distance this weekend, and it's actually more like 400'. With my calculated load, overall voltage drop, including branch circuit drop, would be around 2% with aluminum 250s. That should give me plenty of room for additional loads.

 

[A-1Sparky]

The problem with re-taping the primary for voltage drop is a motor load start up current will still cause dimming of lights, and as said it will also cause over voltage when the load is less which can shorten the life of lamps as well as electronics, I never suggest re-tapping or buck/boost for voltage drop problems, providing a higher voltage will only provide dimming lights at the higher voltage.

Here is a nifty VD calculator that will also give you the temperature the wire will run at if you want to play with the figures:

VD Calculator

Scroll down the page to get to the calculator

Re-tapping at a higher voltage was just kind of a last resort option, as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have gone for that idea anyway.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I re-measured the distance this weekend, and it's actually more like 400'. With my calculated load, overall voltage drop, including branch circuit drop, would be around 2% with aluminum 250s. That should give me plenty of room for additional loads.

I can't see why this wouldn't work since you have calculated for connected load. I realize you can't include diversity for the calculations but it is still there.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I can't see why this wouldn't work since you have calculated for connected load. I realize you can't include diversity for the calculations but it is still there.

I faxed over the calculations to the utility company manager this morning. I used my actual calculated load and then added 50% for future additional loads, and still came in at around 3.3% overall drop. I can't see how they could so no.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I can't see how they could SAY no. :ashamed1:

 

[Smart $]

I can't see how they could SAY no. :ashamed1:

...and what if they say you should use 300's or 350's???

 

[A-1Sparky]

...and what if they say you should use 300's or 350's???

Although completely unnecessary, I would be willing to do that to avoid the alternative.

 

[A-1Sparky]

Update on stubborn POCO...STILL stubborn POCO!! The manager agreed with my calculations and agreed that I should have no voltage drop issues with my proposed install. So what's the problem? They are still refusing me a variance by saying "That's just our policy...If we let you get away with it, we'll have to let other people get away with it...and we're not willing to do that." What a crock of sh..! They'll let you run 4/0s 250' but not 250s 370'. Why? Because they said so.

My next and final step is to plead my case to the Board of Trustees, and just hope that they'll listen to reason. What a nightmare! :rant:

 

[kwired]

Update on stubborn POCO...STILL stubborn POCO!! The manager agreed with my calculations and agreed that I should have no voltage drop issues with my proposed install. So what's the problem? They are still refusing me a variance by saying "That's just our policy...If we let you get away with it, we'll have to let other people get away with it...and we're not willing to do that." What a crock of sh..! They'll let you run 4/0s 250' but not 250s 370'. Why? Because they said so.

My next and final step is to plead my case to the Board of Trustees, and just hope that they'll listen to reason. What a nightmare! :rant:

I still fail to see why anything beyond their delivery point is of any concern to them. Here it is not uncommon at all for field irrigation service conductors to be 1400 feet long or even longer. POCO stops at the disconnect they install directly below the meter which is usually at the road, the irrigation equipment is commonly 1/4 mile or so from that point in the center of the field.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Update on stubborn POCO...STILL stubborn POCO!! The manager agreed with my calculations and agreed that I should have no voltage drop issues with my proposed install. So what's the problem? They are still refusing me a variance by saying "That's just our policy...If we let you get away with it, we'll have to let other people get away with it...and we're not willing to do that." What a crock of sh..! They'll let you run 4/0s 250' but not 250s 370'. Why? Because they said so.

My next and final step is to plead my case to the Board of Trustees, and just hope that they'll listen to reason. What a nightmare! :rant:

So, the POCO says no conductors can be over 250 feet long after the meter base, correct? where are they measuring from? What if you have a well that is 400 feet deep, 100 feet from the house? Call the public utilities commission, see what they say. http://www.dps.ny.gov/

 

[hurk27]

So, the POCO says no conductors can be over 250 feet long after the meter base, correct? where are they measuring from? What if you have a well that is 400 feet deep, 100 feet from the house? Call the public utilities commission, see what they say. http://www.dps.ny.gov/

You beat me to it, here in Indiana our Indiana utility commission would put a stop to this companies demand real quick if it is after the meter as I have posted many times on here.

It sounds like this utility is out to try to make as much money as they can off customers as well as to make right of ways for them if houses in the future are built next to this property, I have never ever had a utility with such an outrageous requirement, sorry we are allowed to spend our hard earned money they way we wish, if they are not footing the bill I can not see how they can demand how you install your conductors as long as it meets the code, it is your money being spent not theirs, and that is how I would approach it with the utility commission.

This would be like a gas station saying you can only buy gas if you own a vehicle that cost over $50,000 dollars, but at least with a gas station you have a choice to go to another, that is why we have utility commissions to keep them from doing this type of thing.

No one has the right to tell us how we must spend our money if the cost is ours to bare, as long as it meets code for safety.

I had a lineman and inspector who were cahoots with trying to make electricians to only install RMC for services, the inspector couldn't keep me from using PVC because we have state wide uniform codes, so he was able to get a lineman to try to tell me that his utility doesn't allow PVC for risers where the riser doesn't support the drop like on a gable end and is clearly allowed by code, one call to our state AHJ which he called the utility commission for me and had me tell them the city and inspector as well as the line man who was trying to enforce this for the inspector, well to make the story short, they both lost their jobs which wasn't my intent but now i have a city and linemen who respect me when they deal with my work, most city's and county's around here know me by name and only enforce to the code as it is written.

Wasn't long ago a member of this forum who had a problem with a local city here who was trying to make him drywall a garage or rewire the whole garage in pipe because he installed an electric car charging station that met the code using NM wiring methods, I made a call to our state ahj on his behalf who had the city remove the red tag and passed the job, one thing I have learned is that rouge inspectors are like children, once they learned that they wont get away with trying to enforce their own agenda, they learn to respect the rules or it will come back to bite them, give into them and you are at their mercy, if you live in a state that doesn't have state wide codes, then get involved with other contractors who are willing to fight, use the media to help promote equality through out the state and bring and end to the control that some inspectors think they have, your future customers will thank you for stopping requirements that many times are only enforced to make jobs cost much higher so the little man can't compete with the larger company's as in most of these requirements there is no added safety and if it meets code and the fact that a customer is allowed to spend their money the way they wish and as long as it meets the code that is their right.

Sorry for the rant, But over the years I have fought hard to stop this type of abuse and to protect not only my rights but the rights of my customers, and as above even helped a multitude of other contractors around here in doing the same who didn't know they do have a way to stop this abuse.

 

[A-1Sparky]

I still fail to see why anything beyond their delivery point is of any concern to them. Here it is not uncommon at all for field irrigation service conductors to be 1400 feet long or even longer. POCO stops at the disconnect they install directly below the meter which is usually at the road, the irrigation equipment is commonly 1/4 mile or so from that point in the center of the field.

I'm pretty confused myself. I've never done work in Vermont before and am used to dealing with the POCOs in my area of NY. I know people with 800' driveways who have 4/0s secondaries and have had no problems at all with voltage drop. POCO brought up the issue before connecting and made them sign a waiver releasing them from liability should voltage drop be a problem.

 

[A-1Sparky]

So, the POCO says no conductors can be over 250 feet long after the meter base, correct? where are they measuring from? What if you have a well that is 400 feet deep, 100 feet from the house? Call the public utilities commission, see what they say. http://www.dps.ny.gov/

They are measuring from the meter can to the nearest corner of the house...about 360'-370' away for me. Good point about the well...I hadn't even thought about that argument. Thanks for the link on the public utilities commission...hadn't thought of that either. I'm currently living and working in NY, but this property is in Vermont, so I'll have to contact Vermont's public utilities commission.

Back to the allowable distance from the meter to the house...the question I have for the Board is "Why were POCO-owned meter cans installed next to a POCO-owned transformer and conduit run from the transformer to the cans if those meter cans can't be used?" Surely the POCO was given a subdivision layout with proposed house site locations when they brought the underground primary power in.

 

[A-1Sparky]

You beat me to it, here in Indiana our Indiana utility commission would put a stop to this companies demand real quick if it is after the meter as I have posted many times on here.

It sounds like this utility is out to try to make as much money as they can off customers as well as to make right of ways for them if houses in the future are built next to this property, I have never ever had a utility with such an outrageous requirement, sorry we are allowed to spend our hard earned money they way we wish, if they are not footing the bill I can not see how they can demand how you install your conductors as long as it meets the code, it is your money being spent not theirs, and that is how I would approach it with the utility commission.

This would be like a gas station saying you can only buy gas if you own a vehicle that cost over $50,000 dollars, but at least with a gas station you have a choice to go to another, that is why we have utility commissions to keep them from doing this type of thing.

No one has the right to tell us how we must spend our money if the cost is ours to bare, as long as it meets code for safety.

I had a lineman and inspector who were cahoots with trying to make electricians to only install RMC for services, the inspector couldn't keep me from using PVC because we have state wide uniform codes, so he was able to get a lineman to try to tell me that his utility doesn't allow PVC for risers where the riser doesn't support the drop like on a gable end and is clearly allowed by code, one call to our state AHJ which he called the utility commission for me and had me tell them the city and inspector as well as the line man who was trying to enforce this for the inspector, well to make the story short, they both lost their jobs which wasn't my intent but now i have a city and linemen who respect me when they deal with my work, most city's and county's around here know me by name and only enforce to the code as it is written.

Wasn't long ago a member of this forum who had a problem with a local city here who was trying to make him drywall a garage or rewire the whole garage in pipe because he installed an electric car charging station that met the code using NM wiring methods, I made a call to our state ahj on his behalf who had the city remove the red tag and passed the job, one thing I have learned is that rouge inspectors are like children, once they learned that they wont get away with trying to enforce their own agenda, they learn to respect the rules or it will come back to bite them, give into them and you are at their mercy, if you live in a state that doesn't have state wide codes, then get involved with other contractors who are willing to fight, use the media to help promote equality through out the state and bring and end to the control that some inspectors think they have, your future customers will thank you for stopping requirements that many times are only enforced to make jobs cost much higher so the little man can't compete with the larger company's as in most of these requirements there is no added safety and if it meets code and the fact that a customer is allowed to spend their money the way they wish and as long as it meets the code that is their right.

Sorry for the rant, But over the years I have fought hard to stop this type of abuse and to protect not only my rights but the rights of my customers, and as above even helped a multitude of other contractors around here in doing the same who didn't know they do have a way to stop this abuse.

I don't mind the rant at all...I'm fuming myself. I've been planning this for months, as this will be my home. I bought a backhoe and paid to have it transported to my lot (it's 9+ tons), I bought an enclosed trailer to store all of my tools and materials, I purchased house plans, got permits, etc. etc.. If you had purchased property and saw a POCO transformer on site with meter cans next to it with conduit run from the transformer to the cans, what would you assume? Me too.

The thing about this POCO, is that it is very small and is supposedly a not-for-profit organization...yeah right. It is a department that is part of the town. I suggested that it would behoove the town to allow my install, as it would then have another POCO customer as well as another home on the tax roll. This whole thing really makes no sense.

When I present my case to the Board, I'm going to propose going with either 300s or 350s and show them with concrete numbers that such an install is more than adequate.

The POCO is also trying to justify their stance by saying that although they agree my calculations are correct, and that voltage drop would not be an issue, what about future voltage drop problems due to additional loads? I explained that my numbers were based on calculated load and then another 100% increase in load in the future. That's one hell of a cushion. Theoretically, you could make the whole house electric, including heat, and still be around 5-6% voltage drop.

Thanks for all the input, and I'll keep you guys informed as things transpire.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Wasn't long ago a member of this forum who had a problem with a local city here who was trying to make him drywall a garage or rewire the whole garage in pipe because he installed an electric car charging station that met the code using NM wiring methods, I made a call to our state ahj on his behalf who had the city remove the red tag and passed the job, one thing I have learned is that rouge inspectors are like children, once they learned that they wont get away with trying to enforce their own agenda, they learn to respect the rules or it will come back to bite them, give into them and you are at their mercy,

I remember that thread, you asked him to PM you so you could help him. I also had a confrontation with an inspector that was telling me I couldn't splice an unfused wire. When I asked for a reference, he got mad and failed me. Here I simply went to the director of the inspections department to get passed. Don't understand why he thought that, I asked him if I was supposed to dig up an entire service and replace it simply because it was cut rather than splice it.

 

[kwired]

I'm pretty confused myself. I've never done work in Vermont before and am used to dealing with the POCOs in my area of NY. I know people with 800' driveways who have 4/0s secondaries and have had no problems at all with voltage drop. POCO brought up the issue before connecting and made them sign a waiver releasing them from liability should voltage drop be a problem.

Maybe they are giving you a hard time because you are not from the area. It happens.